Philosophy>

Kaptain K Mart
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Flying Wombat
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Bob Hausenbuiller
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Peaches
...compressed...
Starshadow
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
Bob Hausenbuiller
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Wash Out
Amen!!
ShadowStalker
net test
MotherEarth
...compressed...
Flying Wombat
...compressed...
Bob Hausenbuiller
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
Grendel
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Robin Starveling
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
PaintballDude
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Bob Hausenbuiller
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Grendel
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Idget
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
Starshadow
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Cave Bear
...compressed...
Starshadow
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Starry
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Bob Hausenbuiller
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Starshadow
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Bobbie
...compressed...
Flying Wombat
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Bobbie
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Bob Hausenbuiller
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Starry
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Spur
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Crabapple
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Levendis
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Flying Wombat
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Lynx
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Zen master
...compressed...
Kaptain K Mart
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Starshadow
...compressed...
JoAnne
...compressed...
Flying Wombat
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Zen master
...compressed...
West
...compressed...
Siddartha
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Levendis
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
Siddartha
...compressed...
MotherEarth
...compressed...
Vern Bear
...compressed...
Whippersnapper
...compressed...
JayDee
...compressed...
Lydia
...compressed...
Siddhartha
...compressed...
Blasphamous Rumor
...compressed...
Blasphamous Rumor
...compressed...
JayDee
depends on the weed and the attitude of the one who smokes it and at least, in a caste system, there is honor...even untouchables have their place, and it is not wrong or dishonorable
Spymaster
John makes more money than you and you get fired more often. Not much commonality there.
JayDee
did I mention your god, Money, Spymaster? no did you topic drift? no your philosophy is transparent, as Myth would say
chester cheetah
There's something to be said for that. Meanwhile back on the Tacoma Is Hell Rant Subject... went to the gas station last night and relatively little untoward happened... but a young femme was bumming inthe parking lot, and I geve her $2.00... not bacause Iam such a soft touch, but her pitch was this: "Car is broke down, and all my husband and I want to do is to get *out of tacoma*... this place *ain't right*..." So I gave her all I could really spare.
JayDee
now, that was an act of decency
Spymaster
Yours is worthless.
JayDee
I wouldn't accept cash for it, Spy I'd call you a `ho, but this is the Philosophy Room and I'd only call you that in Flame Wars, you turd
John
That's funny, Chester. I agree; sometimes I'll give people money if they really amuse me.
JayDee
I wonder: is it better to be killed by friends, or enemies?
megamol
I think being killed by either would be preferable to dying of chains....many people do you know.......
Whippersnapper
So, chester, you take a cowardly AND lazy way out. You find an easy source of ready-made captured text which denigrates my religion, and just post the lot. You need take no personal responsibility for any of it, eh? And you don't have to bother with any effort of your own to seem honest or to look for facts. But chester, you can surely do better than that stuff. Several Internet conferences are loaded with posts of that sort, much of it far better written. A small number of people, virtually all of whom seek monetary gain by way of lawsuits (as appears to be the case in this instance), generate almost all of it. They've chosen the Internet as their "forum" for this one-sided flood of falsehoods. I skimmed the thing a bit. At a glance, it's incredibly paranoid stuff, repeats the same basic theme throughout and looks like a calculated PR job. It appears based upon factual circumstance to a small degree, with a thick overlay of blatant falsehood. My guess is, the guy's a paid "witness" who was carefully briefed in what to write. That's how lawyers typically work in any such case. For instance, the courses of instruction this guy names. Most don't exist. The few that do are grossly misrepresented. The Organization Executive Course for example, is based on materials anyone can buy, and is simply a comprehensive course on organization itself. The course has been taken and successfully used by excecutives everywhere; even CEOs of Fortune 500 companies! Many of them are not Scientologists. YOU can go take this course if you like. The quote on the subject of "Black Dianetics" is carefully edited and out of context. I've read that material myself. Hubbard's point was that misuse of the subject could wreak horrors and was to be vigorously prevented! And certainly NOT to suggest that it should ever be so used for any reason. The real material is publicly available, as is everything about Dianetics - and if necessary I'll obtain it and quote it fully. It's true that just as, say, a hypnotist might grossly misuse his skills, so could a trained Dianetic or Scientology auditor. It is certainly possible to upset a person's "case" rather terribly, for instance in much the same way life itself sometimes does. But such activity is diametrically opposed to the most solemn and emphatic ethical codes of an auditor - and so widely condemned by all Scientologists, that if any effort were ever made by any executive to have the technology misused, he'd have a wholesale mutiny on his hands. Neither I nor anyone I know would stand for misuse of auditing methods no matter who demanded it. I saw mention that certain reading materials were prohibited to Sea Org members. Absolutely not so. I never heard of ANY censorship of any reading material whatever in my 4 years of work in the Sea Org. In fact, I read some Marx and even once glanced over a bit of Das Kampf while in the Sea Org! I've always read rather widely. Marx I found vaguely interesting, though not much. But far better reading than you've offered today, chester. I did know David Miscavige, by the way. Fast moving, hard working, and a nice guy. Got things done, some of which I was involved in. Played a mean game of volleyball. I rather liked him. His wife was delightful. Oh, I see another thing. Hubbard's "Commodore" title was purely honorary. He personally owned and captained the Sea Org's (Sea Organization, get it?) first ship, back in the late 60's and early 70's. But in later years, he had no administrative position in the Church. Miscavige (or his predecessor) was essentially in his present position for years before Hubbard's death. Don't let that stuff scare you, Spymaster. If I've been brainwashed, I suppose I'm now beyond hope... :) I think chester's getting to you; maybe you need to meet some real Scientologists to help relieve your nightmares. They're just regular folks, Spy-guy.
JayDee
yeah I know a bunch...
Flying Wombat
neither one. "better" doesn't apply to being offed. "bad, but not quite as bad" might apply. in that case, enemies. because if you're killed by friends, there is an element of betrayal. and Cap'n Karma will be visiting the killers anyhow.
Spymaster
Your case is worse than I anticipated, Whippersnapper. You need medical attention. I will be your counselor. Spill your guts. I will comment.
JayDee
it is a bit more complex than that, FW and I doubt that the Captain would levy negative sanctions against friends who were carrying out your request to be killed
Whippersnapper
Well, Spy, it all started when I was a little kid....
Spymaster
Well, I guess I can't blame you for having a religion, Whippersnapper, but you have to realize that scientology is exactly that - a religion. It has very little (if any) scientific basis. As such, I would find it non-useful, as I have found all organized religions to be somewhat off-mark from reality. If you are really interested in psychology, scientology is not the way to go. There is no way I can recommend it to anyone given the amount of negative information surrounding it.
JayDee
more like a cult
Freejack
Whip - you state chester has no facts upon which to base his statements... could you post some to boost yours? chester so far has posted other peoples words which seem to be being presented as "fact", and you have taken great exception to this. but you have yet stated why all his talk is bullshit or why everything he's said is a lie...
JayDee
I know you mean it
Whippersnapper
You come off as quite an authority, Spymaster. But really: I do recommend that you inform yourself about the subject whereof you speak as a first step. I may be expecting too much. You're the guy who gets into senseless arguments, evidently just to get a rise out of people. Arguments you then evolve into fascinating debate like "I screwed your mom." Still, I have faith. I cling to the belief you're capable of better things. Never let it be said I wasn't your staunch ally. Really. I mean it.
Spur
whippersnapper: you say youre the one to tell us everything about scientology, whether it be good or bad. well, youve told us lots of good things about scientology. if you wanna prove that youre so unbiased on the matter, tell me something bad about scientology. what you consider to be a true bad thing, not like this cult-blather.
Spur
boy, john is so understanding of peoples problems, huh? dropping out of school is perhaps the best choice. consider that. you gonna put yourself in a situation where you get beat down every day, where quite likely, there is nothing good for you? if so, i call you stupid. not strong. if your job gives you nothing but abuse, drop out of it. if your family gives you nothing but abuse, drop out of it too. therell be at least one person who wont call you weak for it.
Spymaster
One of my favorite strategies is always to sound as if I know what I'm talking about, even if I haven't studied the subject. Religion, however, is a subject that I _have_ studied. Scientology is definitely a religion. Worse, it is pop-psych and contains a lot of erroneous information. But I think I understand what you mean by 'engrams.' When I studied psychology, I tried to identify whether there were any subconscious impulses driving me. The closest analogy that I was able to find was previously held _assumptions_ that colored how I would perceive things (and thus, color my reaction to them). A better analogy, I think, is in how personality forms. Today, for instance, I watched a talk show with Roseanne Barr on it...she was speaking of her multiple personalities. What people don't understand is that the only difference between a multiple and a 'normal' person is that the multiple actually assigns names to the various aspects of their personality. With time and experience, these personalities grow and adapt to their environment. The point, however, is that EVERYONE has different aspects of their personalities but aren't necessarily aware of them. That, I suspect, is what you refer to when you say, 'engram.'
JayDee
hmm...
john hinkley
okay so what do scientologists and dianaddicts believe?
ViRuS
Trying To Sound Like You Know What You're Talking About When You Don't..... Otherwise Known As Bullshitter Or Downright LIAR.....Well, Atleast You Admit It.....
Megamol
hmmm if you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit....
JayDee
admission of lies is good for the soul
JayDee
or do both, and don't give-em a clue as-to what it-really-be hohoho...
Megamol
JayDee, are perhaps we finally seeing your basic philosophy of life???? And not only that, but in the correct room???!!!
Livia
that's soooooooo original
JayDee
it's only a dream aack...
JayDee
why should I tell?
Megamol
is it a dream or a fig newton of your imagination??
Flying Wombat
the aspects of personalities which aren't constantly in the forefront are sometimes called 'parts'... there are varying degrees of dissociation; I think that MPD is merely a more extreme-than-usual case. I don't know how advanced the 'orthodox' level of psych is with this stuff; if they truly want to help people, they'll become unstuck from Freudianism and/or using drugs to 'cure' disorders whose causes lie elsewhere.
ViRuS
There's No Place Like Home^2
Livia
what makes you so certain that you know the "causes" better than the experts, zen? you are starting to sound like joanne
Spymaster
MPD is not one of my specialties in psychology. I have focused primarily on the neurotic disorders (anxiety, etc) and schizophrenia. I avoid Freudian models and stick to environmental models to explain the development of MPD.
Whippersnapper
Spymaster, suffice it to say: you just DON'T know what you're talking about. Not even vaguely. Like, Dianetics is apples, and you're talking about anthills. There are few things that really make me wince like pretended knowledge. Admitting it only intensifies the offense. Read a book, for God's sake. Think of it: then you could malign the subject like a true expert.
Spymaster
Like you, o scientologist inexpert, are even qualified to judge a normal intelligenstia's database on psychology. Your opinion is so much trash.
Elisabeth Perrin
You focus on neurotics because you are one Spymaster.
Nathan Bedford Forrest
Anyone remmeber that scene from Repo Man where this guy is ranting about this book called "Diuretics - Matter over Mind"? Classic....
JayDee
well... I'm glad almost everyone here is into shrinkology I'm REAL glad... when the Window of oppourtunity opens it is most certain that I will toss a couple of bagged cats thru it but it will not affect normal Citadel diss-ident operations might not even piss anyone off will cause a few people to go "hMMmmmm...", if I'm successful... and might even fix a bogosity that has occured, and even permit the continuation of diss-ident activities in a more fun-luvin' manner... fix a head that might be slightly twisted, but might be fixable...woah gawd...how could I be so nonobservant... same situation has been staring me in the face and whuppin' my butt for a decade, now...damm, can't fix that...damm, damm, damm, shit...(angst) and let me go my way, knowing that I have been successful/done a good thyang ^philosophy, there...^ woo, even... gotta go plot, foaqx this one ain't gonna be too easy but it ain't gonna be difficult and even by GIVING A SHIT I won't end-up poopless... and I know that there are many who rather see me just full-of-shit... I won't letcha-down (hoho!)
ViRuS
His Opinion, Spoogemaster, Is Shared.......
Spymaster
i am god bow before me
JayDee
Spymaster: <smirq>
Whippersnapper
Freejack, you probably haven't been around for it, but I have posted tens of thousands of words about Scientology. All of it has been in response to senseless bashing and/or gross misconceptions. I'm actually more than willing to post at length on this, as many whose "N" key is worn-smooth will attest. I usually don't even let the off-topic-ness of it stop me. Scientology IS a philosophy, and this is the Philosophy room. But it's lies and controversy, not philosophy, that wind up at the fore. Chester's secondhand rants really don't rate much response. I've rarely seen worse. A point-by-point rebuttal would require a half-million words, which would probably be thoroughly read by very few people. Somewhere I've got to draw the line. So how about we take it in this direction: If you have specific questions, I will answer those in whatever detail you may like. Especially if we keep somewhere within shouting distance of this room's topic. If you have concerns about the "bad news" about Dianetics or Scientology, I would LIKE to try and keep it friendly and short, else I suggest we take it to Topic Drift or Controversy or some such. I read every netted room on this board, and will see and respond to such things if you post them elsewhere. I have 18 years of association with the Church of Scientology, six of them as a staff member. I worked in a position closely connected with the Church's topmost management for several years, and was, by reason of my job, often on familiar terms with people and activities that were the core of the financial and administrative operation of the Church. I know the Church's policies (its REAL ones) at all levels. I know details of legal battles, of real estate purchases, of executive misbehavior and of cash reserves. And I know, without uncertainty, that it is a decent group of decent people that usually bears no resemblance to the portrayals it frequently receives in the news media and by ignorant paranoids like chester. I can definitely answer your questions. If I want to.
Mina
MPD- Multiple Personality Disorder? I know quite a bit about that. I also know a lot about Anorexia Nervosa... Psych major, go fig.
JayDee
yep... funny thing...around here, Repo Man was a hated vid right next to "The Naked Lunch" they never even saw that one, but it was hated...
JayDee
yep, good-ol MPD...gotta love it I don't know too much about AN, but it is well made-up for what I have found out about that lovely situation called Displaced Aggression just loverly...
John Shannon
My aunt has MPD.
ViRuS
Repo Man Was Great.....
john hinkley
hes not lying hes god to himself and i am god to me. he lies not. perspective.
uncle herb
Metropolitan Police Department?
Spur
everybodys eyes/handwriting/brainwaves change when they show a different aspect of their personality, even if they dont have names f0or it, right spy
Megamol
The ulitmate product of materialism is shit.....
Spymaster
shit can be reprocessed into usable products, like fertilizer
JayDee
I've seen it happen, Spur
Spymaster
no, my handwriting is always crappy. However, I type 80 words a minute.
ViRuS
Prove It.....heh.
Spur
scientology, lds, catholicism, wicca. i have no warm place in my heart for any of them, but goddamn it they get a lot more shit than they deserve.
Freejack
well Whip... i've never really bothered to read anything about it. my limited knowledge leaves me thinking "economically driven" ... i shall have to read a little about it all. i will then probably have many questions, and i now know who to direct them to...
Oongouwh Gautauma
spymaster, u want job at my 7-11?
JayDee
don't think managerial positions are all that cool, Spymaster and I think Southland Corporation has its' planning done, already... unless the 7-11 isn't a Corporate store then, management becomes even more of a shit job believe me management isn't a whole lot of fun especially if it is salaried, and low-paid, @ that
Spymaster
A managerial position wouldn't be bad, Oongouwh. With the proper motivation, I could turn your company into a major corporation.
Megamol
you got that one right JayDee!!!
Torch Song
good for you, JayDee
Spymaster
liberal philosophy - guns kill people, not people liberal philosophy - if you only throw money at it, it will go away liberal philosophy - crime is taking over. we need more prisons, so we can breed more long term criminals, so crime can take over, so we can build more prisons, so we can breed more long term criminals...etc ad nauseum. Fortunately, the conservative mindset isn't any better. That's why I feel particularly intelligent when I embrace nonpartisanship.
Flying Wombat
hmm. JJ (the console sysop here) was relating a recent experience at his front door... it'd be interesting for him to share about it in here.
John
So how come Milton Friedman calls himself a liberal capitalist?
Wolfgang
... the key word being "when"...
John
Queers can go underground. Sure, they're sawing off their identity to fit in. It's a tradeoff. I don't say it's right that the high school world is not friendly to them. Just that it is reality, and that there's another important reality: The world is not easy on most high school dropouts. I am quite understanding of people's problems. For example, the problem of getting a job without a high school diploma. In Germany, there are three (or four) levels of secondary schooling. The lowest level teaches folks how to be janitors. The highest level teaches doctors. Here, we're afraid to be so bold about it. So we let the economy do all the work.
Myth
There are about six, actually. Depending upon where you make your divisions. For 10-15 year olds: Realschule/Hauptschule (comprehensive), Gymnasium (high school), or Gesamtschule (combination). For 16+ there is: Gymnasium/Gesamtschule (during Oberstufe, in preparation for university), Berufsschule (apprenticeships/job training with day release courses for those who plan to try and continue on to university), Thechnische Hochschule (technical), and Universitat. But your point is well made, nevertheless.
Whippersnapper
Sorry, Spur. A demand for exclusively bad news about *anything*, much less someone's religion, is tasteless and hostile. I'll answer honest questions posed by individuals who genuinely want factual, balanced information. Don't bother to change your tactics to draw me in, Spur. Go get your jollies someplace else, little child.
JayDee
it gets better, TS... but, there is also the minority that has to be accounted for and, I will always take the minority into account but, not the same way, oh, no...
Livia
he didn't ask for exclusively bad things, whippersnapper, he asked for one bad thing surely you can manage that
JayDee
uh-huh... right...
Whippersnapper
Livia, I'd rather not. Thanks anyway. I'm habitually candid. If I'm discussing the subject, I'll hide no facts except the few I'm not at liberty to discuss. But boneheaded requests for dirt aren't on my agenda.
West
Whippersnapper, I have a question for you, and I won't even argue with you on the answer, since I just want to know what it is. Does Scientology, I mean mainstream Scientology, currently believe that engrams are formed at or even before conception?
Wolfgang
I don't think it is an unreasonable request, although being made by who it was, one can assume any information given thus won't be used in an objective, fair manner. Regardless... I could easily list drawbacks to almost any *great* organization, be it work, home, church, or whatever. I would find it hard to believe that there is absolutely NOTHING that you would change about the current state of Scientology, Whippersnapper.
Prick
oh whippersnapper you're so cold and heartless you BEAST
Spur
John: im not sure if youre saying that dropping out of high school is sawing off your identity or if not dropping out is. but neither one has to be. here are the options as i see them: drop out of school, probably lose some future income because of it, avoid some harassment / stay in school, probably have higher income, get a little more harassment / stay in school, higher income, less harassment, stay in closet. (dont tell me there are options to protect yourself from the harassment unless you really honestly believe it. even if you appeal to authority and authority is helpful, there is little a school administration can do to defeat widespread hs homophobia. coming out about it to admins is likely to get you more shit than you got before.) anyways, like you said, its a tradeoff. it all depends on whats less important to you. your identiy? resort to making fag jokes in the locker room. your income? go ahead, drop out. i know a lot of high school drop outs and not a single one is starving. they arent making as much money, but theyre making ENOUGH, a word too few people understand. the harassment? stay in school and come out. but you are in absolutely no position to judge whats important to anybody else, and id appreciate it if you didnt imply that anybody wasnt strong because they decided that going to MIT was less important to them than living with a little less shit thrown at them and with their self-dignity intact.
Spur
whippersnapper: that is what i was afraid id hear. i have yet to discover anything that there isnt dirt on, and yet, i havent heard a single word from you criticizing scientology on a goddamned thing. you can scream about how unbiased you are all you want, but its hard for me (and, id bet, every other person thats still listening) to believe.
Flying Wombat
hmm. upon reading by-user in here, I see no evidence to support a prejudice that Spur wouldn't use the information in an objective, fair manner. indeed, if he showed bias (about Scientology, as that's the issue that was brought up), he wouldn't be alone.
Prick
here's some philosophy, when you masturbate keep some ice handy when you're just about to get off stick the ice right under your balls i swear to god it'll make you a human firehose
Torch Song
Oh yes, "accounted for" definitely The trick is making sure the minority doesn't take over.
Spymaster
Prick - thanks for sharing. not.
Whippersnapper
Since you basically know nothing, Spur, I simply despise your preference for the bad news. Your goads won't work, and your bad attitude is *your* problem, not mine.
Whippersnapper
More or less the same applies to you, Flying Wombat.
Whippersnapper
I must admit, West, I suspect you of wanting to argue the answer, or see it argued. But I'll gladly answer your question, oddly phrased though it is. "Scientology" doesn't really "believe" anything, strictly speaking. It's a philosophy and a discipline of application. And it's Dianetics, strictly speaking, which treats the subject of engrams. Engrams are defined as mental recordings of real incidents containing pain and unconsciousness, which have the potential to act upon the individual against his will and without his full knowledge. Birth itself fits all the criteria of a major engram. It's traumatic, often lengthy, and usually loaded with verbiage. Pre-natal engrams evidently do occur and have, rather than being refuted or discarded in Dianetics, only been proven to exist time and again. An auditor doesn't tell someone what to remember. When a question is asked, like "When have you felt ________ [some pain or sensation, etc.]" or a question of that sort, he accepts the answer given. Bizarre as it may seem, sometimes the answer is a prenatal (before birth) incident. Read the ever-promoted Dianetics book if you want more details. Although many of the techniques of Dianetics have changed considerably since that book was written, all its data remain essentially unaltered by subsequent experience.
Whippersnapper
Wolfgang, I don't wish to create an impression that I'm unwilling to ever criticize Scientology, though such as Spur and Livia would love to cast that illusion. If I were in fact incapable of taking an analytical view of it, I'd be as "brainwashed" as some here have been fond of claiming. You, Wolfgang, have already demonstrated that you're not inclined to senseless "bashing," which fact I appreciate. While I remain quite unwilling to focus exclusively upon the negatives of a religion I hold in high esteem, I'll answer your query anyway. I differentiate between Scientology as a religious *philosophy* and Scientology as a series of groups (the Churches and related organizations) of *people*. Where the technical and philosophic details are concerned, I really don't have any criticism. It's an amazing subject, of vast size and with many facets of application and understanding to offer. I have no quarrel at all with those parts of it I know well. Administratively, the Church has quite a few flaws. Few are major. Some have come and gone, others seem to have persisted. Some Scientology organizations differ considerably from others. Leadership is a major factor, and varies widely. Possibly the most common serious failure I have seen in Scientology Churches is a failure to train people well for the positions they hold, and also to extend the staff's knowledge of Scientology itself. This is also expressed in a shortage of technically-trained people -- principally auditors. One result of this is that these Churches don't do all that well financially. Yet they need SOME income just to exist, and some resort to "hard sell" and such things rather than just being extremely good at Scientology - which "sells" itself quite well when its people and Churches are living examples of what it actually can do for individuals and groups. Those organizations where lots of thorough training happens, have no trouble of this kind. It's as much a symptom, I suppose, of a "young" and rapidly growing movement, as it is of any systemic failing. The numbers of Scientolgists and of Scientology Churches and Missions rise dramatically every year. None of the organizations is subsidized, but each must largely make its own way financially, often starting with almost nothing. In an ideal world, I consider it wholly right that any organization, including a religious one, should be supported by its members, and by reason of the service it provides them. For this reason, I am pleased that Scientology operates as it does, exchanging tangible service with its parishioners for its support. The system has, as far as I'm concerned, only one major drawback: if people are doing a poor job of actually *knowing* and *using* Scientology's philosophic and organizational wonders, one winds up with a group who may not appear particularly remarkable, yet who continually try to *sell* others on how great it is! It is sometimes no wonder that some conclude it's some sort of scam.
Torch Song
<shocked look> Egads! I just had the experience of wanting to applaud a post from Spymaster!
Aquila
It has been a month. Last time, there was a load of gay-bashing. Thank you for dropping that. But now where is the Philosophy going to lead, if anywhere? Why do you believe what you do? What standard of evidence do you base it on? Are your standards any different for religion than scientific theories?
John
So don't ask me. Ask Dan Savage. On his radio program last Sunday, the Resident Queer Of Seattle had the same advice for queer high-schoolers. "Keep a low profile, and masturbate a lot." One of the advantages to this approach, he said, is getting through to college, where "queers abound" (depending, of course, on where you go). Should a queer facing harassment at school ask my advice, I'd hook him or her up with a group like Lambda House, a place for baby-queers. And I'd tell him what I used to tell myself in high school: Yeah, these guys are fucked up. But in ten years, I'll be living large and enjoying life, and they'll still be sucking dirt in this God-forsaken dump of a town. So far, that's been basically correct. I'd also consider the educational alternatives. My step-mother teaches at an alternative public high school, where some people are openly queer. But dropping out is pretty low on my list. It's not that someone with a diploma is any *smarter* or more talented than someone without. A college roommate of mine dropped out at 16, and is now getting his Ph.D. at CalTech. But society is kind of like a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book. At any one time, you have many options, but they seem to be limited--filtered, if you will--by the past that brought you there. What might have happened if I dropped out? I wouldn't have many of the friends I have now (perhaps I'd have different ones). I doubt I'd enjoy the world as much as I do now (because college sharpened my ability to observe and appreciate it). And I certainly wouldn't be making the money I do now, or having so much *fun* in my profession. Had I bailed at 17, I have trouble visualizing a future anywhere as enjoyable.
Saint Bob
Prick: I'm already a human firehose.
Lion
Aquila, are scientific theories any different than their own little religion? you must trust a machine that imperfect you built(making it potentially imperfect)to give you information about things no human could have ever seen,based on information fallible humans put into it and try to extract the origins of the Universe. Also I've noticed a lot of people,(not neccissarily on this board) talking about "those bigoted christians", a definite steriotype if I ever heard one. Christianity is not a religion. It is a lifestyle. Religion is a lot of laws that must be followed on fear of hellfire or something. In christianity, God told us to follow those laws, and no one could, so, since he had already said that there must be blood to pay for sin, and Israel was running out of sheep, he sent his son Jesus to die as a sacrifice. Christianity is not bloodthirsty, the blood has already been spilled. And to base all of Christianity on those loudmouthed and overopinionated few would be bigotry in itself. God does not hate gays, he never said that in the Bible. He hates what they do, but he loves them just the same. If you caught your child doing something you expressly told them not to, would you stop loving them? God does not send anyone to Hell, he gave us free will and lets us decide. But please do not take this at my word, read thru the bible, not a verse at a time that may be taken out of context, but read though it openmindedly, at least the new testament and ask someone who understands it if you get stuck, maybe even me. I couldn't answer everything about the bible, but it is important to me, and I could find out for you. Try looking at it from God's point of view before you judge and be honest with yourself. That is all I ask.
Spymaster
yah, god just loves sacrifices he needs blood even more than satan does we have strayed by not sacrificing sheep on the altar personally, i think satan is a lot more honest
Spur
you dont count flying wombat, youre just as prejudiced as me. hell, everyone here is super-biased. isnt that right whippersnapper? okay, who would you trust (someone who posts in this room) not to use that information to support all of their biases?
West
Whippersnapper, I don't know why you think my y question was oddly phrased. You have a problem with viewing me as some sort of enemy, although I am most certainly not that. I simply thought to short-circuit your suspicicion of my motives by promising you that I wouldn't argue your answer. I was just curious. You answered me partially. You didn't notice the part where I asked you if you thought engrams were created at or before conception. I guess I could make that more specific. Do you regard the mind as something entirely separate from the brain, so that engrams can be formed when there is no brain? And again, I do not wish to argue with you. You have strongly held beliefs, I recognize that, and so long as you feel that they are doing you a benefit, I have no wish to interfere with them. You know, I don't have to believe a story to respect it.
Prick
name one person in the universe that doesn't have some sort of bias on every damn subject you can think of
Livia
god's point of view doesn't make sense why should he hate what gay people do? they don't procreate, but neither do celibates, and he apparently likes those just fine and if he knows nobody is capable of following his laws, why make them in the first place? he sounds like a rotten parent
JayDee
The Creator isn't a he, but is capable of "reproduction", so might be closer to a "she" also, The Creator doesn't have constructs such as love, hate, fear, anger, loathing, greed, disgust, and those other emotional states that humans are all too-eager to attribute to their gods, in an attempt to identify with them and the laws? mathematics and physics not a load of human abstractions that are transferred onto the god-figure, and then used as control measures with an appeal to an irrefutable external authority figure, such as a god, to enhance the control that the alleged middle-men have over the lay populace also, it is a good tool to use to gain popular acceptance when atrocious acts such as war, genocide, and repressions are carried out god said it was cool, and He is on Our Side liars...
john hinkley
i am unbiased when it comes to....um let me get back to you
john hinkley
that was a great stereotype message of the normal stupid people fromt he net.
JayDee
put rather simply, the Creator is the being that is responsible for the direction of the organization of the Universe, and all that is in it this organization is subject to certain laws that govern matter and energy, and this is occuring in the spatial and temporal dimensions that we are observing, at this time...now that the matter is organized enough to have attained a level of complexity to be self-aware... anything else?
Lion
JayDee, where did you read that in the bible? And God did not reproduce, Jesus is not another God, his is part of God. Hard to explain. It's called the "Trinity", I don't quite understand it myself. That's one of those things you'll have to ask God about if you go to heaven. And God does too have emotion, otherwise he would have no reason to spend all the effort in keeping us around. He doesn't need us, he loves us. And in the very first chapter of Genesis it says that God was lonely, and that's why he created us and the Earth around us. HE was lonely. Why would the god that made the rules have to follow them? They are for us, so we don't hurt ourselves. The same way small children generally have to go to bed before their parents. But don't carry that metaphore too far... the bible never said that we would grow up to be little Gods, that's one of those human ideas that we like, absolute power. God is not male of female, but refers to himself as HE because he is masculine. To think that he is feminine is something that some lady thought might be because she wanted to be that much closer to being God. She was no farther than any man, just physically different. God discriminates but does not steriotype, he just knows you. The only reason he said that Men were to be dominant was that women were the first approached by Satan and the unluckiest. Not anymore. Now women can do pretty much whatever they want, which is cool. But that doesn't mean that men should be the babbling idiots that we are so often portrayed as on the tube. Jaydee, who do think the "Creator" is?
JayDee
the Creator is beyond temporal and spatial...it is more like a thought and as we well know, thought affects the material Universe... now, reproduction is a part of Life and, in reproducing, there seems to be a drive in the parent to produce offspring that are better able to cope with the enviornment than the original parent-model...evolution at work, with the enviornment continually testing the offspring, and the best survive, reproduce, and the cycle continues it also happens to be incorporated into some rather interesting computers that I have heard of...a self-modifying program/os now, in this Universe, subjective and abstraction are intertwined, and this is part of the equation...where not only the physical attributes but the philosophical attributes determine the success or failure of the offspring to thrive, and reproduce, in turn and, there was, just recently, a major turning-point made by the people of this world...they achieved control over energy concentrations that were sufficient to cause extinction of them-selves...and they didn't and the Walls fell; their eyes were opened!
West
Jaydee, ya know, I was about to agree with you, when a silly thought struck me. And since this is not the religion room but the philosophy room, I figure I can bother you with this silly thought. God with parthenogenesis I can see alright. Theoretically human women can become pregnant without men, but not the other way around. Incidentally, and off my silly thought, if Jesus was a man like unto all other men, hence his sacrifice, such as it was since he only "died" for three days, unlike the rest of us--then from where did he get the *other* set of ordinary human genes? The one's that didn't come from Miriam? Anyway, to my silly thought. You proposed that God does not have human emotions, no biases, and so forth. Just the laws of physics. But you know, if there is nothing more to human beings than the laws of physics, which I happen to think is the most likely case, then human emotions and biases are entailed in those laws of physics. It's kind of amazing, to me anyway, how a master theory in physics can turn out to have all sorts of things hidden in it, awaiting discovery, that in fact will be discovered. Black holes for example, and the expansion of the universe and hence the Big Bang or at least some kind of expansion from a singularity. The Doppler red shift of stellar objects that increases with their distance from us. The recently found, and required by theory uneveness in the background radiation. And so forth. Well, I guess if some alien intelligence, from some other universe, one without human beings, were given the master theory of this universe's physics, it could predict the possible emergence of human beings, and human emotions and biases. So, stretching a point perhaps, one might say that truly, if God is the rules of the universe, then God does "have" human emotions and biases in the respect that the set of rules that is God inevitably led to those very things.
Lady Non Sequitur
I still like Alan Watt's philosophy as put forth in The Book, that we, everything, everyone, is part of God (or whatever name you want to put on it) playing hid-and-seek with itself -- the trick is to realize it. Not sure if I believe it, but I find it an interesting theory.
chester cheetah
Actually, Lady NS, I tend to concur.
Michael
The following text is a rerun from a year ago and casts some light on religious differences amongst people.
Michael
The Infant or Firstborn soul ---------------------------- The motto of the infant soul is "Let's not do it." These cycles, like physical infancy, have a very limited range of perceptions and activities. For that reason, many infant souls are born into very simple stations of life and will find any demand or complexity frightening. New experiences are more apt to terrify than excite the infant soul. The infant or "firstborn" soul perceives itself and the world around it simply as "me" and "not me." In this cycle there are no racial memories. If "not me" is perceived as hostile and unkind early in life, withdrawal occurs, and a condition known as autism often develops. If this perception occurs later, the infant soul may react with unchecked violence: sadism, murder without visible cause, acts of unbelieveable cruelty. The infant soul truly does not +know+ the difference between right and wrong action, but it can be +taught+ the laws of common sense and decency. Intellect is a product of culture, and even firstborns and infant soul can be taught to read and write and compute arithmetically. Infant souls rarely seek higher education unless forced. They are bewildered and hostile in strange situations. Infant souls do not, in general, seek employment as such. This is a characteristic they share with very old souls. Many infant souls are regarded by complex and technological cultures as mentally lacking and may, erroneously, be identified as mentally deficient. The infant soul adopts the religion of its parents without modification, although its interest is cursory and its understanding poor. The infant soul perceives love only in the form of lust. It performs the sex act with all the frenzy of a wild animal, completely dependent on some innate estrus in both sexes lost to higher cycles. It is powerless to change this. Infant souls cook and eat to survive, and the food is usually tasteless and overcooked. The souls are fearful (of almost everything) and their kitchens are usually antiseptically clean. Infant souls are often bitten by dogs who have no previous history of biting, simply because of their inordinate fear. Most infant souls would not be caught dead on horseback. Allergies to animals are denials. The Baby soul ------------- The motto of the baby soul is "Do it right or not at all." These cycles are more complex. The soul, so to speak, has learned to toddle and in these cycles will learn to run and climb trees. The baby soul perceives itself and the world around it as "me" and "many other me's." The baby soul forms strong beliefs early in childhood, borrowed from those around it, and these are literally unshakable. The baby soul normally agreeable - a pillar of the community - until an opposing view point is expressed. Then, inwardly, the baby soul is bewildered and baffled by the difference. Outwardly, it will express anger, hostility, negative emotional energy, belligerence. The baby soul occasionally seeks higher education and does well in small conservative liberal-arts colleges, trade schools, etc.; learns "proper" subjects; and is often the "good student." Baby souls sometimes seek to become the big fish in the tiny puddle rather than seeking national acclaim. No matter what area of endeavor they enter, baby souls seek to fulfill their roles in a different sense since preserving the status quo is the goal of this cycle. The baby soul tends to be fundamentalistic in its religious beliefs. Personification of the Godhead is strongest in this cycle. The baby soul believes in the forces of evil. The baby soul views its own sexuality with a vague uneasiness, and if the culture fosters such, will think of it as somehow shameful. The baby soul will be embarrassed by overt displays of honest sexuality, and it will strive to keep the others around it bound down by its own reprehensible moral code. Behind closed doors, the baby soul is, more often than not, quite as prudish as it is in public, and seldom sustains any sort of sensual pleasure. Not having experienced such, it naturally does not "believe" in the existence of the experience. Just as the baby soul's kitchen is antiseptically clean, so the food the baby soul cooks is apt to be tasteless and uninteresting. Baby souls know what kind of food is "good" for you. They will rarely venture beyond the most simple fare. +Most baby souls somatize.+ Any medical patient who fixates on a particular organ system can usually be categorized immediately. For instance, all elderly ladies with bowel fixations are baby souls. Baby souls are ashamed of their sexuality, whether it be homosexual or heterosexual. +Baby souls are prone to use the courts excessively when their sense of justice has been outrageously insulted.+
Michael
The Young soul -------------- The motto of the young soul is "Do it my way." This is an adventuresome time, with the soul ranging into new territory. This is where the movers and shakers are found; young souls are eager to take on tasks in the physical plane and often set themselves impossible goals in their lives. They are the architects of civilization. The young soul perceives itself and the world around it in quite a different manner than in the preceding cycles. It perceives itself as "me" and it perceives you as "you," but it perceives "you" as different from "me," and experiences the need to change you - bring you around to its point of view. Young souls rarely question their motivation as they are limited by their preceptions in a way the mature soul is not. The young soul almost always seeks higher education, usually graduate degrees. The young soul is a tireless worker for its cause, and will go through unbelievable hardship to bring this cause to bear. Education can be an example of this. Achievement is the watchword of this cycle. Young souls seek the larger ocean as the sphere of their activities. The young soul, if religiously inclined, tends toward orthodoxy in the extreme. It will campaign tirelessly against all religious reform. If the young soul is atheistic, it will be equally tireless in its efforts to wipe out the orthodoxy of others. If the young soul's own personal opinion of sex is rather low, it will do its best to convince others around it that sex is evil and should be eschewed. Renunciate monks and nuns are quite often young souls. They renounce loudly and take every opportunity to remind the world around them that they have renounced. On the other hand, the young soul can be an equally zealous proponent of total sexual freedom. The young soul perceives love as Eros, solely predicated upon those expectations it has of the others around it. If the others fail to live up to those expectations, the young soul can hate with equal zest. Sexual conflicts can be agonizing in this cycle - early training versus internal urge. Early-cycle young souls tend to adhere to the food patterns learned in childhood. In the middle of this cycle experimentation is rampant, but the appetite is usually poor. Late-cycle young souls continue to experiment with food, and foreign food fetishes often develop. Racial memories are stronger now and the +deja vu+ draws them to certain types of food. Young souls often own status pets, such as ocelots and Lhasa Apsos. Young souls ride the rodeo. Allergies to animals are denials, we remind you. The young soul is much attached to the physical body and lessons are often not learned, even in the astral interval. The young souls seek to return as soon as possible. Being out of the body is unpleasant for the young soul. It is terrifying for the baby soul, interesting to the mature soul, and welcomed by the older soul.
Michael
The Mature soul --------------- The motto of the mature soul is "Do it anyplace but here." These are difficult cycles, demanding much introspection and often seeming to give little peace in return. The hard-won lessons of the young cycles are brought to bear on the mature soul. This is the most difficult cycle of all, for the mature soul preceives others as they perceive themselves. Because of these perceptions the mature soul will often seek to sever relationships, seemingly for no reason, or by the same token, seek to perpetuate outwardly inappropriate relationships. If you and I are both mature souls, within this framework are also your experiences of me. In other words, while I am experiencing you, you are experiencing me, and at the same time, you are aware of my experience, and upon this deeper awareness, you and I will base any future social intercourse. As you can imagine, sometimes this makes living difficult. The mature soul is not as open to the occult as the old soul. The mature soul perceives beauty with a clarity not found in the earlier cycles. At the end of the cycle, the mature soul begins to perceive truth. This prepares the soul for the search. This is not to say that the mature soul is isolated from its fellows; quite the contrary. When the mature souls perceive the unhappy ones, they desire to shield themselves from the unpleasant vibrations. You have already experienced the backlash from this. But know this well: you cannot alter their play no matter how much you love them. It is the nature of the mature soul to seek and to question the motivation for all of life's actions. When this occurs, there is a gradual opening up of the soul, and when this happens, we can make limited contact. More of the unused portion of the brain comes into play during this cycle and psychic phenomena occur with more frequency until they are finally acknowledged and the serious work begins. This is made more fifficult because this cycle is really fraught with +Maya+ [artificial behavior], more so than any other cycle: the perception of the older soul begins to emerge, but the understanding does not. Mature souls feel all of the hostile vibrations around them. They have a need to remove themselves from this, but are too caught up in the traditional mores to remove themselves entirely. They feel a certain sense of duty which does not dissipate until the transition is made. This is why a skilled therapist would be of help in this cycle. By therapist we do not mean a young soul practicing psychiatry either. In the mature cycle there is acute perception of the veil that lies between the real and artificial space, and as never before, the longing to penetrate this veil and go beyond the senses to glimpse the pandimensional. To know that you are not alone in the void, you must walk out on the thin ice and that way test the physical universe and its response to your plea. Most mature souls feel this, and in some way translate it into dreams of incredible strength and strange beauty. Not many, unfortunately, retain the memory of these dreams or question their meaning. When a soul not in teaching encounters the true personality in essence for the first time, it is, of course, a devastating experience. This usually comes about in moments of extreme stress, grief, or sometimes even trauma. It can, however, come about if the soul is suddenly catapulted into a situation so unusual that none of the tapes [memories of experiences in previous lives] is applicable. It applies in this case to the dream, as well as all unusual situations. Of course, it is undeniably true that none of you has a permanent tape telling you how to react to the surface of the moon and it is conceivable that all of you would encounter your true personality were you to find yourselves at the controls of a large jet aircraft without any prior training to guide you except perhaps a few flying lessons in a small propeller-driven plane. Mature souls seek an almost unknown quality in their lives; in other words, they know they are seeking but are generally unclear what it is they seek. For this reason mature souls do not usually enjoy life unless they are surrounded by souls in bliss. This is a difficult cycle. We must emphasize the difficulty. The mature soul is beset with many problems, all intrinsic. The only way to help is to make the environment nonstressful, so that it has sanctuary. The mature soul often seeks professional help on its own. The mature soul always seeks higher education, although not always in an institutional setting. It is often too uncomfortable in a school setting. The mature soul makes a massive contribution to knowledge, both philosophical and scientific. Karl Marx, Alfred Adler, Fritz Perls, Sigmund Freud, Immanuel Kant, Aristotle, and Albert Einstein were all mature souls. There is a real change of emphasis in the public lives and careers of mature souls. Mature souls pursue their public lives for very different reasons. After all, they are questing, and their work will coincide with the nature of their quest. Religion becomes self-motivated in the mature-soul cycle. The mature soul seeks quiet faiths: Quakerism, Unitarianism, Buddhism. With the right partner (another mature soul who has become centered, or an older soul) the mature soul can be an ardent lover. The love is deep and lasting, for agape is possible during this cycle if the inner conflicts are resolved. With the wrong partner there is apathy, impotency, frigidity, infidelity. This soul has more of a tendency to "mate for life" than any of the other cycles, providing a comfortable mating occurs. Mature souls make fine chefs: they enjoy precision cooking and gourmet dining. Their Hollandaise Sauce does not curdle - it would not dare. Wine fetishes are at their height in this cycle. A mature soul would never serve a Zinfandel with lobster. An old soul would not hesitate a moment, if Zinfandel happened to be its favorite wine. The pets belonging to mature souls will most often reflect their owners' personalities. Many winners of obedience trials belong to mature souls. Mature souls ride to the hounds. And as if all this were not enough, infant souls are often given to mature souls for growth.
Michael
The Old soul ------------ The motto of the old soul is "You do what you want to, and I'll do what I want." There is a change of pace here. In previous cycles the soul was not drawn to the search with the same intensity that it is in the old cycles. There is a newer and more profound creativity which is part of the search. The old soul perceives others as a part of something greater that includes itself. And with this comes the realization that there are no problems except those created by false personality as a defense. However, it is difficult for old souls to break these patterns because old souls more often than not seek the route of least resistance. The older soul usually enjoys hard manual labor, but seldom works as an artisan. It may or may not seek higher education. If pressure is exerted by the guru, it will, or if it senses that its task somehow involves the necessity for obtaining the proper credentials. For this reason, many old souls are gardeners. Young souls with fabulous estates pay them well to exercize this inborn talent. The money thus gained is used by the mid-causal body to perpetuate its influence on the physical plane. There is another aspect to this. The old soul, at a deeper level, realizes the futility and temporary nature of material achievements and therefore lacks the drive to accomplish this. They are all extremely competent, even in roles that are out of essence. The drive now is for spiritual evolution in all old souls. Therefore, they are inclined to let the rest slide. Any one of them could achieve anything they wish to, but more often than not old souls choose to have lives in which the usual working world and survival struggle will not touch them. In their work they tend to choose an occupation that is pleasant or not particularly demanding so that they will be free to pursue their real goals without hardship, unless the employment aids the search. For that reason, final-level old souls rarely seek remunerative employment for any period of time. The religion of the old souls is expansive and includes unorthodox rituals. Groves of trees become cathedrals and the presence of the realized masters is often felt by older souls. The synthesis is perceived in the final cycle, and old souls seldom cling to dogma. The old soul is casual about sex in the earlier because erotic love begins to lose its charm. In the final level, the old soul often does not participate for lack of purpose. (Sex adds nothing to its life.) The old soul is intensely sensual, however, and does enjoy close physical contact. The old soul is usually an experienced and exciting partner for souls in an earlier cycle, but can be a very disappointing lover because of its nonchalance. Old souls are casual cooks: they use recipes as guidelines rather than gospel. They tend to use spices and herbs freely, and will cut mold from cheese and rotten spots from fruit rather than throw the food away. Old souls feel at home with living things. Winemaking is an ancient art; most vintners are older souls and may have been vintners before, returning to that art most gladly. They can indulge their penchant for gardening, making a living, and avoid the rat race at the same time. We have told this group once that most older souls do find comfort and have affinities for other creatures. Most older souls inspire confidence in the animals and the animals respond quite naturally to this. Some older souls even find that this affinity extends to wild and fearful animals. Several in this group have demonstrated this. Any bad experience with animals at an early age will cause some abhorrence. The older soul does not generally extend beyond the offending species, nor does it reach the phobic stage, as in the case of primary experiences dating back to previous lives. Most shaggy dogs belong to old souls. Old souls begin to relate to wild animals and often have an affinity for all living creatures. Old souls ride to the trails. What old souls do not understand yet is that they are all caught up in a device that is the last gathering together. That is what the old-soul cycle is all about. All old souls come at last to philosophy and the arts. Some come more obnoxiously than others, but they come nevertheless. All over the world, their entity fragments are searching for that feeling of home. Some do not know what it is they search for, but they experience the emptiness.
Megamol
interesting...
JayDee
thanks, Michael...
Blubard
My frriend Dr. Judy had been awarded he degree for herrr thesis regarding the first commandment: Thou shalt not have any other gods,nor create graven images before me. The rest of her paper pointed out that any human word assigned to the supreme being is in fact a graven image. The word being the image in question.
Whippersnapper
West, I accept that you're just curious and will treat your questions accordingly. But if you still wonder why I was suspicious, perhaps you should check out my latest response to your posts in the Religion room. I think I misapprehended your reference to *conception* as meaning *birth*. I don't know at what earliest point engrams have been found to exist, but I think conception or before is a bit unreal. In Scientology, the mind is regarded as separate and different from the brain. One obvious basis for this is the overwhelming evidence of past-life memories (including engrams) which are encountered in auditing. There is also evidence, as I understand it (here I'm getting out of my depth as I'm not well read in this) that there actually are body-related, sort of "cellular" recordings of trauma. I believe Hubbard devoted some efforts to the distinction between these things. Evidently, he determined it was most productive to address the *person's* experiences as opposed to those of the *body*. Everything I know about engrams relates them to the physical body. Someone who happens not to have or be in a body (a concept which is rather routinely accepted in Scientology) can't suffer an engram, presumably. But I would theorize that they might conceivably be affected by an unresolved engram (which is after all essentially a mental recording they're carrying around) which they had previously received. When we start dealing with a person in other ways than as relates to the body, engrams and the like we begin to get outside the limits of Dianetics and enter the realm of Scientology. I believe this is a precise quote of L. Ron Hubbard: "Dianetics led to and was the reason for Scientology." What actually happened was that as Dianetics was refined and as experience accumulated, Hubbard encountered overwhelming evidence of past lives. With only a few exceptions, such experiences were quite easy to bring to the surface in any individual, and a great many were verified against historical records. The fact that people are essentially spiritual beings became quite evident. Scientology is a very extensive treatment of that fact, an extension of the theories of Dianetics into matters of the spirit, which was ultimately expressed in a set of it own axioms. It became a sweeping religious philosophy which is inclusive of Dianetics but vastly broader in application.
Spur
"you're not inclined to senseless 'bashing' which i appreciate" "since you basically know nothing" [this is my little photograph of hypocrisy at work, you like?]
West
Okay, thanks very much, Whippersnapper. Very nice explanation. Okay, you and I have fundamental differences in world view, and we have fundamental differences in our data bases when it comes to the law and to history. However, I state flat out that I consider you to be a good person, so far as I can know you from your posts. I state flat out that I do not consider you, personally, to be any danger to anyone. And I have a feeling that you are most likely a loving person, nice to be around, helpful and charitable. What more can one really ask of a person? People don't hate, I think, anyone or anything that they do not fear. Hate, I think, is an institutionalized form of anger, which is turn is raised by fear. Being a good person, you are not someone to fear, and therefore you certainly are not someone to hate. If I hated anyone, that person would be my enemy. I kind of think that when there is an enemy, that enemy is the target of hate. No fear, no enemy. So I can say unequivocally that you are not my enemy. I merely disagree with you widely and on a couple of topics, and I think just a couple of topics, deeply. On is about what it takes to make a reasoned analysis, and the other is about the relationship of government to the people in a democracy. Neither of those things is going to be decided by either of us. We are both just small voices crying out in a large general wind. I just don't see this as anything to get very excited about. Do you?
Kagro X
There's a better trick, though. You stop playing hide-and-seek, and you start making yourself do things.
Whippersnapper
You're welcome, West. I appreciate your words of peace and acknowledgement of my character. You show evidence of decency and reason yourself; I don't consider you a true "bad guy," despite any amount of criticism I may heap upon you. I also appreciate that you speak against prejudice and hatred. I think you're right that it's usually a product of fear. When it's unreasoning fear or based upon falsehood, it's a sure recipe for injustice. Only occasionally is a highly judgmental or censorious position justified on any issue - and then only when based upon a preponderance of very reliable and well-considered evidence. Fear has no part in it; and when present it should engender a hearty suspicion of one's own sagacity. I suspect, in fact, that where you disagree so strongly with me on other topics it may sometimes be a product of past disagreements - where you battled irrational fixed ideas which were held by unthinking ideologues, and which resembled but were not the same as the views I've presented. You have in any case shown restraint and consideration in your latest references to my religion/philosophy in this room - something many others haven't had the balance to do. I don't think I'll feel the need to be hesitant or suspicious if you ask any more questions. Ask away!
Spur
how fucking beatiful, can i get a photo of you guys shaking hands?
Prick
my god
Philosophy> _