Christianity>
endless bastard
Christians are supposed to be carbon copies, or they're not following the Bible, and they're not Xtians.
Gee, ts, the whole idea of xtianity is so repugnant to me because I am the voice of Satan. Deal with it.jhíŽ Are you stupid? I'm in the minority, so I should exclude this room....awww...poor little xtians don't like someone questioning their beliefs because they're too weak-minded to do it themselves. Whaaaa!
endless bastard
I am just as powerful as Jesus. Tell me something you'll have him do, have him do it, and I'll do the same thing. Worship me.
ShadowStalker
ts: if people did that, the room would die..
no, that's not true, it wouldn't quite die, it would disenegrate to the useless level of half the rooms that get passed around the net until each sysop finally nuked it.. then maybe it would die.
.. but then again, in a roundabout kind of way, eb does have some point - christianity is actually rather anti-human. we're all doomed unless we spend our lives worshipping some entity that supposedly created us.
my theory is this: humans have an inherent need to explain the unknown. religion has filled this role since the dawn of history - granted, it has "evolved" from specific instances of "god" worship (i.e. one god for the sun, one for the moon, etc..) into a single "God" (at least in christianity) that is responsible for everything. the problem is, everytime a major scientific discovery comes to light, some of this "God's" power is diminished as we've found a practical solution to a problem.
i won't even start on the fact that christianity is destroying the world tonight, i'll save that for a little later.. :)
Puddleglum
<shaking head> Oh brother.
hap slappy
< > no, that's not true, it wouldn't quite die, it would disenegrate to the
>useless level of half the rooms that get passed around the net until each
>finally nuked it.. then maybe it would die.
Sorry SS, I hate not quoting what I'm commenting on...
If the room believed, it would never die, just live on in happiness perched on the right shoulder of the great father of all electrons...
> btwglad to see the folks posting from my next o' the woods ( I'm from boggy b'ham... )
Liz Pearson
EB> All I can say is, there must be something to a belief system that has been around for 2,000 years.
Virus
100 Years Obsolete Atleast......
Liz: Athletes Foot And Acne Have Bïkeen Around Forever, That Doesn't Hake Them Any Better Than Any Other Extremely Irritating Factor......
Marx Had It Right; The Opiate Of The Masses.......Jeez.
John
So what's your angle on the ones that have been around longer?
The Devil
If it's been around longer, why should Christianity be the correct one? Ever read the Papyrus of Thoth? Much older than even Judaism...
Virus
Science Replaced Religion When The Industrial Revolution Went Into Effect....
Liz Pearson
Sheesh! I suggest that you all go back and read my point again! I meant CHRISTIANS must be getting something out of the bible for it to last so many years! Did I mention anything about Judaism, or Islam, noooo! Just Christianity. Stop twisting my words around, please. But, for arguments sake, yes, I see your point on Judaism, etc. Of course, they have survived for the same reason. You might be surprised to know that I have read the Baghavad Gita as well as parts of the Quran and have come away a better person for reading them. I'm just saying that for us Christians, we have devoted our lives to Jesus Christ. <shakes head>
Torch Song
Apparently, EB, you are incapable of reading something as written--probably too busy looking for chance to trash things...
I said: "wasting people's hard drive space" and called you boring
And obviously both apply if you can read this room and
*still* keep spouting drivel about all Christians being
"carbon copies"...not to mention the idiocy about being
"the voice of Satan"
<snort of derision> Face it kid, you aren't that interesting.
LA REINE
oh yeah -- and i'm so weak minded too. and you threaten me so.
endless bastard
Science *should have* replaed Religion when the Industrial Revolution went into effect....
LA REINE
oh yeah. i'm definitely a carbon copy. just ask anyone. i'm so highly normal and conformist and just like every good little girl should be. oh -- and btw -- i accept absolutely everything on faith. no questioning whatsoever. i woul dnever be the one who stood up to her fundamentalist neighbor and tell her that premarital sex was not necessarily a straight ticket to hell. i never suggested that perhaps people other than christians went to heaven. i never claimed that all religions have their truths. nope, that must be someone else because i'ma carbon copy, remember?
Liz Pearson
Well, all I can say is that EVERYONE is entitled to their beliefs, and so am I.
John
Your exact words were, Liz, "All I can say is, there must be something to a belief system that has been around for 2,000 years."
Bookworm
Liz- eb has admitted that there is a God. He says that science should have replaced religon? Well science has proved that for every action/force there is an opposite. So if he claims to be the devil then he is admitting there is a God. As God is the opposite. Don't let him get on your nerves. He just enjoys being a jerk to other people who don't want to hear what he has to say. If he gets to bad see if enough people agree to get him twitted. Personally I ignore him most of the time.
Lab Rat
I'm not entitled to their beliefs. ;>
Biff
Hey endless bastard, It is clear you haven't even read the Bible, let alone study it. Your arguments are indicative (look it up if you can read) of someone who echoes what he's heard, not what he's studied.
I challenge you to find anything in the bible that is contradictory. Find youself a translation that is written in paragraph form and read the ENTIRE section. CS LEWIS was an athiest until he tried to disprove the Bible. He then had to acknowledge the truth and proclaimed it. (If you don't believe CS LEWIS, Try JRR Tolkein.
endless bastard
Oh, yeah, like, I am sososo much the nonconformist Xtian I, like, am an individual. (Is that supposed to be sarcastic or what?)
You sound very old Torch Song. It must be that mortality thing that's driven you to be a Christian. I'm sorr you see the Grim Reaper, but we all do...
you don't have to be jealous that others are going to outlive you.
Talk about not reading posts. Xtians are, of *course*, not carbon copies of each other. However, according to the *Bible*¯ý°ýyou are supposed to be as close to each other as possible.
Liz Pearson
<sigh>
GB
I am a Buddhist, mainly Zen Buddhist from the looks of it.
It fits my personal belief system and is very helpful for my self cultivation.
The problems I found with Christianity, and I am not arguing any enlightening experiences any of you may have had with the religion,
is that it A) Does not have any system with actuall DEALING with people's problems; alcoholism, homosexuality, addictions, cravings.
and B) It seems very centered on "salvation". Which is something that either means enlightenment or people take it to literally mean, "Well suddenly if I do things right I'll be saved and I won't have to worry about anything anymore." Which is possible.
There are new branches of Christianity which are more liberated and more willing to deal with people on a realistic and therapeutic basis. I like those (but they still do not go deep enough for me). But as far as Catholocism and the traditional forms of Christianity, all I can say is, change or vanish. Because from the looks of it the world is leaving them behind.
LA REINE
oh really? seems fundamentalist christians aren't the only ones guilty of selective interpretation.
Diakonos
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickednness of men who supress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them ... For althought they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools ... Therefore, God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts...
Romans 1:18ff
john hinkley
yeah if you look at it most christians are happy.
so it works to some degree. at least they SEEM happy. most
of the ones ive known have been really happy so god.
you just have to disbelieve everything that makes sense. its
hard once youve foudn otu that christianity is a sham
John
"I am a Buddhist, mainly Zen Buddhist from the looks of it... The problems I found with Christianity... is that it... [does] not have any system with actuall DEALING with people's problems; alcoholism, homosexuality, addictions, cravings."
What sort of Buddhism identifies homosexuality as a problem?
ZooKeeper
I thought we were supposed to be as close to God and Chirst as possible, not as close to each other? where does that presuppose we'll all be clones of each other? God must certainly have allowed for personal distinguishing characteristics, else we would not have them...
Torch Song
EB--<snort> you obviously DON'T know me at all...
Diakonos--just a thought on that passage: Is this perhaps at least part of the answer to the old question about "How could God let _____ happen?"
Puddleglum
EB> I see that since reason didn't work for you, you've resorted to insulting. I pity you.
Blain Nelson
EB -- I'm getting tired of this. I'm tired of your assumption that Christians are necessarily stupid because they don't agree with you. That no Christian ever challenged or even considered their own belief. This is simple arrogance based on limited perspective.
If you wish to be an evangelical pulpit thumping atheist, feel free. That's fine. I choose not to be, and that's fine too. I would point out that -- if you really do wish to bring enlightenment and truth to the lost souls of all these Christians -- you are using some pathetically ineffective tactics. Perhaps I could convince you to be a Christian by calling you names, misrepresenting your beliefs and your words, and treating you like a complete idiot for disagreeing with me, but I can guarantee you that this will be quite ineffective in convincing me to become an atheist.
LA REINE
you know, a month ago we could have had an interesting discussion on biblical interpretation and such but now we've dropped to mindless namecalling. and for once i'm not the instigator of such actions. pity.
GB
Ah... so much debate over such a young religion...
Diakonos
GB - I appreciate the polite manner in which you presented your thoughts, but I must disagree profoundly with your conclusions. I believe it comes down to your definitions of Christianity. I do not identify Christianity with "Churchianity" or with "Religiosity." I identify Christianity with being a dicsiple of Jesus the Master Teacher. He did indeed spend Himself in helping people just like me overcome severe addictions.
I also object to being told what my definition of salvation is. I don't recall ever equating it with "enlightenment." Nonetheless, thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)
ZooKeeper
thank you Diskonos for saying what I've been dying to say. but much better than I could have.
nice to know there are still minds out there with some control over the words which spill through them.
Megamol
There is a BIG difference between organized religion and christianity,and it seems like part of the problem is that organized religion is too fond of pushing their particular set of beliefs on other people. I was brought up in the Lutheran church and when I was going to confirmation classes I was told that the Lutherans were the only ones who followed the Bible correctly and therefore they were the only "true" religion. I asked the pastor what made them so right, since the Protestants, Baptists etc. all claimed the same thing, and guess what... he couldn't answer that...really put me off going to church. I find that worshiping in my own way at my own times works much better any time....
Diakonos
Zookie - Thanks. E-mail me and let's chat.
Shadow(stalker?) is that right? Can't remember... However, I do remember the science comment. I'm not sure what caused you to say what you did, but actually, quite the opposite is true. Science is continually "unearthing" evidence that illustrates the trustworthy nature of the Bible. For years, increasing scientific knowledge has brought about greater vindication and understanding of the Biblical message. Ancient records and artifacts from Archeaological digs continue to affirm what I have already found to be true.
One interesting note: Science in it's very nature is a in a constant state or process of discovery. New discovery necessitates change in understanding and/or acknowledgment of what is factual and true. I am not a big fan of having to acknowledge "new truth" every time a new discovery is made. Take for example the fallacy purported as truth for several years in the early to mid 60s that the fetus grows through "evolutionary stages." It was unquestioningly accepted as factual from the start and was foolishly printed in school texts and taught as fact. Well, in retrospect, many are feeling loke fools for ever espousing such an idea, especially since it was later found to be based on flawed data and tampered evidence. The theory that was once "fact" is now an embarrassment to many. The point is, (IMHO) once science learns all there is to learn (if that can ever happen) I am confident those who participate in that particular mode of discovery will find themselves at the foot of the throne of GodI'm sure I'll get blasted for this post, but hey, I'm proud to bear shame and reproach for His Name.
Puddleglum
Diakonos> Your right. I have a chart somewhere (I'll try to find it) that shows a list of scientific discoveries and how they were pointed out in the Bible so many years before. Like man had to discover something that God had allready told him.
GB
Well, Diakonos, thank you for the complement.
I was not labelling what is and is not a Christrian. Let anyone who wants determine waht Christianity is and isn't, it's their oppinion (many people have, hence the billions of Christian denominations out there).
Well then, what is "salvation"? The attaining of pleasure from God? The state at which a person reaches when their problems are not problems anymore? Is it the state at which they are in "Heavan", if so, what is "Heavan" to a Christian?
Also, as far as scientific evidence saying that the Bible is accurate, I would like to ask what exactly does the Bible depict that is true scientifically? I can also say that Buddhists discovered all the laws of physics and the workings of molecules 1500 years before the western world did, and it might be considered true.
hap slappy
< I hate it when noone quotes what they are refrring to... >
This is in regards to the post indicating it is not possible that the Bible contradicts itself...
Actually you only have to do a small amount of research to find that this statement is not true... Start in Deuterotomy, with the two orders for everything being created. ( I don't have my bible handy, so no exact references, but they are around 12:something and 23:something. )
You can always go to Laviticus and read how all women who wear men's style of clothing are doomed to rot in hell forever, too. Don't tell Levi Co.
That aside, that particular text contains most of what I consider the 'best' way to deal w/ my fellow human.... until people try to use it to prove that their fav. religious system is the best, and everyone else is just gonna rot as the evil creatures they are... oh and put your disposable income in the tray on the way out.
Elisabeth Perrin
Megamol had a stupid pastor. I grew up Lutheran and I've never met a Lutheran who would say it was the only "true" religion, except maybe some Missouri Synod types.
But for some reason, I jus think it's because megamol is pretty stupid too. Since she has no idea what a Protestant is.
Megamol
you are exactly correct Elisabeth it was a Missouri Synod church. Didn't mean to spell Protestant incorrectly though...must not have been awake at the time I usually know better.
john hinkley
of course alot of atheists are happy too.
its such bullshit why cant i just belong and also not be
completely emotionally unstable. fucking sham, this life.
Virus
Same As A Kelvinist......Kelvinists Were Massacred When They Went To Austria I Haven't Decided If That Was A Great Idea Or What.......
John
I, too, went through Lutheran confirmation, and was never told any such thing about Lutherans being the Only True Christians. In fact, I can remember a few situations where we positively explored the beliefs of other sects of Christianity.
John
Kelvinists were frozen, from what I read.
Elisabeth Perrin
Megamol,
Lutherans are Protestants.
Baptists are Protestants.
Protestants are called that because Martin Luther protested the Catholic Church.
Megamol
All I have to say is I sure wish my church wouldn't have been Missouri Synod, in a lot of ways they are more narrow minded than fundalmentalists....
Megamol
Thanks Elisabeth.....just proves how long it's been since confirmation class...
GB
I didn't really like Luther too much. I thought he was a sicko. Just another head of a cult.
Elisabeth Perrin
Why was Martin Luther a sicko? He didn't want to be any sort of cult leader. Or any kind of leader. He specifical;ly didn't want people who were in agreement with him to call themselves Lutherans.
Puddleglum
GB> Salvation is from God for those who believe on the Lord Jesus.
"Salvation comes from God." - Jonah 2:9
"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." - Acts 16:31
Virus
Puke.
GB
Yes, but what is salvation? Does it change your way of thinking? Does it change your emotional state so that you are "happy"?
Say, my real name is Jonah. Interesting that you quoted from that particular book. :)
I thought Martin Luther was a sicko because of his attitude towards vanity. He wore complete black and didn't really think cleaning himself was horribly necessary, because it was being vane. It was understandable that it was so popular back then, to completely reject all forms of physical possessions and beauty because the rich basically owned everything, had all the vanities, all the art. So participating in a religion that hated material and vanity was participating in a religion that hated the rich.
The whole "Bonfire of the Vanities" thing kind of ticked me off. Puritan ethics in general tick me off.
This is stuff that I've concluded from my own studies, so please argue with me. It's fun. Mostly I just want to know what YOU think, I don't really want to start an unneccesary devil's advocate debate.
Diakonos
Luther accomplished some amazing things. It took a tremendous amount of courage to tack what he did to the door of the Chruch of All Saints and to do it on All Saints Day at that. However, Luther was somewhat of an "extreme swing of the pendulum" from Roman Catholocism.
endless bastard
Ha ha! I can't believe this....people here actually are using the argument that since I am the Devil, there must be a God. If I am, I have achieved my purpose.
The Bible did not predict things that were later discovered. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember something about guys being burned if they saidÅ>bSþ the earth was round.......DON'T YOU?
John, you will never be an atheist. I'm not trying to convince you. To be an atheist, you have to let go of the blankey and realize that the tooth fairy doesn't exist.
If I were going to pick the "true" religion (assuming there must be only one) I would never pick Xtianity. Why not pick one that's older? Where was God (tm) before he thunk up the bible? What happened to all the cavemen? How come I just saw Jesus Christ nude in a cheap porno flick? So many questions...Ü´ë...so many lies....
Elisabeth Perrin
Luther was not any sort of extremist from Roman Catholicism, by standards then or now. Had his theses been looked at rather than them being the instigation of his persecution he would have remained Catholic. He continued to believe there was a place for him and his teachings withing Catholicism for many years.
A sicko because he didn't bathe often? No Europeans bathed very often. Many don't now.
GB
Yes. But bathing in general was just not something he ever did.
The average European would take one actual bathe in the spring, and I wouldn't doubt it if they occasionally took swims in rivers and stuff too. Yes, it was strong of someone to go against the Catholic Church at the time, but that doesn't justify anything.
Diakonos
Hmmm, well, I'm not attempting to support or refute Luther...I'm just saying the guy had tremendous courage.
Diakonos
GB - Okay, the "salvation question..." To me, salvation is a state of being. It is a state of relationship. (I realize this is not the "Christian" room, but I am answering from that perspective.) The first thing that happened in the garden after the disobedience of bitin' the fruit was a break in relationship. Adam and Eve no longer walked in the presence of God. Several passages (time saving device) indicate that sin breaks this relationship and drives us from God's presence. Salvation on the other hand restores that presence and relationship. Now as for the mindset you mentioned above, I would see those things as "fringe benefits." And they're not permanent fixtures either. I have my grumpy days just like anyone else. I really object to the "Christian" who tries to indicate they never struggle, but rather just float from one victory to the next looking like their whole body has been shot full of ether. Don't know if that helps or not...
Diakonos
GB - Just realized I was in the Christianity room. I thought it was the general "religion" room. My bad. :)
Biff
Science does not replace religion. Science explains HOW! The Bible explains WHY!
Elisabeth Perrin
GB: "But that doesn't justify anything." Justify what?
You're whole deal about bathing is just silly.
GB
So salvation is a state of balance between the Christian and God? And sin causes one to stray from this relationship? Interesting.
On the less important Luther discussion... :)
I don't really care that he didn't bathe, but it was his attitude towards beauty and art, and anything which is vane. The Catholic Church at the time was extremely wealthy and vane, so I understand where that attitude could come from. But a bonfire of the vanities? Destruction of art is just insane. Reminds me of book burning or something.
Blain Nelson
I find it somewhat discouraging when I find folks who insist on perfection as a precondition to belief. "Martin Luther had to be perfect for me to respect/follow/honor him," for example. My miniscule understanding of Luther was that he didn't claim to be perfect, nor did he need to be perfect to make a good point about the Church's need for some reform. Other than Christ, I don't see anybody who can successfully claim perfection, and I don't see anybody who needs to be perfect. Striving to become perfect is fine, but expecting another or one's self to be perfect is a one-way ticket to misery because it just ain't gonna happen.
ShadowStalker
diakonos: the "proving" of stories in the bible by science (in this case, specifically archeology) is merely the proving of the ability of humans to record history. when the stories in the bible were put to paper, many cultures were still just starting to convert from a verbal, storytelling history that was passed down from generation to generation to a written history that was less debatable and subject to descrepancies(sp) over the years.
all this proves is that many of these historical battles and migrations happened - the same has been done with ancient native american stories, but they have no relation to the bible, do they? it does nothing to prove that there is a "God," or if there is, that the christian one is THE one..
i realize that the traditional argument to this is that "But these are the words of God..." what this leaves out is that they were still, at some time, put onto parchment, paper, greeting cards, etc by >humans<...
LA REINE
but when the situation is severely tilted in one direction, as the catholic church was for luther, it usually takes a dose of the extreme opposite to even things out.
Diakonos
La Reine... I suppose that is true. It is somewhat like the concept of "I want $50 from you so I'll ask for $200 in hopes of getting $75."
Blaine - The "perfect" explanation you gave is especially true and relevant if one sees it in light of the telios-complete state we find ourselves in. i.e. We are made complete in Him.
GB
Well, I still think Luther was a little bit of a loon.
Nothing wrong with being a good loon, but an unreasonable loon. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a little sleep deprived actually...
Diakonos
Hap Slappy - Funny `nym.
What are you talking about in your previous post. Care to give it another shot?
endless bastard
hap's pointing out yet still more reasons why the Bible is silly.
Science explains how & why. Relgion explains how & why. They contradict each other, but science is repeatable.
Flying Wombat
hap slappy: there are hundreds of examples...
I've run across an interesting challenge: Tell me what happened on Easter. The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matt. 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8.
These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when, and where these things happened.
Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to give educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture -- it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?
Flying Wombat
after all.. believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised up not, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Cor. 15:14-15)
Marked Card
I wouldn't call what he/she said unconstructive. Perhaps just different than what you think, hmmm.. That scare you?
About the comment "this was a room for christians (hell, I won't capitalize if you don't) to discuss facets of the religion", this room is called Christianity, not christians only. I was under the impression this was a room to talk about the facets of christianity, too, just not necessarily from a christian viewpoint. If you can't logically defend your beliefs in the face of a logical argument you should either rethink those beliefs or, with respectable honesty, admit that your beliefs are not based on logic.
John
I asked eb in mail why he was such a jerk in here, and he said there was some other room for "nice" Christian talk. Well, not on my board. But there is a room for vicious religious debate. I wonder why he doesn't go there. In any event, this room has a precident for letting Christians do their thing, and I request the sysop of eb's BBS to remove him from the room.
Elisabeth Perrin
eb isn't into a constructive discussion about Christianity, he's into a vicious attack on it. Let him to do that in the Religion room.
Marked Card
I read reverse. I still don't have a problem with what eb said although it could have been more eloquent. I did, however realize that the sentiment I approved of was a quote, soo...
Torch Song
Marked Card -- key words are "in the face of a logical argument"
I'm not defending anything right now, but I am bored spitless by eb's obvious lack of logical skills...
LA REINE
hey now. i don't have a problem with defending my beliefs. i don't have a problem with discussion. i do have a problem with your religion is stupid and you are stupid for believing it because i say so the end.
Blain Nelson
Beliefs are rarely based on logic. Religious beliefs least of all. So what? Spending all of your time supporting the notion that "I'm not an idiot just because I believe something you don't" is a waste of time. And the "If you can't handle my arguments then maybe your belief is too weak or in something that isn't true" is merely low-grade abuse.
Maybe you'd rather sit around in a OS room arguing whether Windows is better than OS/2, and there's a time for that. But maybe you'd like to learn how to actually use your OS of choice sometimes instead of having endless pointless OS wars going on. It's much the same here. We can sit around the religion room and argue the validity of our religious choices if we want, but sometimes you'd like to actually develop the belief instead of just defending it -- maybe learn something. That's why it would be nice to have some room someplace that it's safe to do that.
Diakonos
There was a time when the Bastard used a bit of logic in it's arguments. Those days are long gone. It couldn't deal with the logic of the arguments presented against its viewpoint and countered with the classic "to the man" argument which in any book is a logical fallacy.
hap slappy
to Diakonos :
>Hap Slappy - Funny `nym.
Thanks. I like it :)
>What are you talking about in your previous post.
I was talking in response to the user you said that there ano discrepancies in the Bible put a 'who' up there not 'you'
and challenged anyone to find one.
I pointed out two. Why should I give it another shot? Read Genesis
and Laviticus and you will find the same references.
Puddleglum
Flying Wombat> Thanks for the challenge, that will give me something interesting to do with my day. I have allways been intreaged with the resurrection and ascension.
hap slappy
to Endless Bastard;
> The Bible did not predict things that were later discovered. As a matte
>fact, I seem to remember something about guys being burned if they saidÅ>b
>the earth was round.......DON'T YOU?
Did you read ..two summers ago when the Vatican announced that
after spending 80K per year ( for an undisclosed number of years )
they had figured they were wrong to imprison Galileo all those times for
trying to tell people the earth goes 'round the sun, and not vice versa?
I got a good chuckle outta that one. Glad they came out with that
statement. Lots of folks still think the sun revolves around us...
Add the pope's endorsement of evolution _this_ summer, who knows, maybe they will declare that women are actually people and not just creatures to tempt the men into sin.... I await next summer impatiently.
-hap
Diakonos
Wombat, Did that several years ago. The point is...?
hap slappy
to: Flying wombat...
>I've run across an interesting challenge: Tell me what happened
:) nice challenge... hope you were being facetious !
-hap
hap slappy
to : Blain et al. re: debates on this sub...
I've not been reading this conf. very long, so didn't see many of eb's or anyone else's posts...
When I enter into conv. about this sort of subject it is usually
in response to one of two things :
1) I was 'dared' :) ( find fallacies! I dare ya :)
2) someone indicates that XXX religion is the only valid way of
looking at things.
Since in my view, the first is provable, and the second is ludicrous, I'm going to post. I'm not slamming your dogma per se, I respect your beliefs, but I do have questions about the ends you may ( or may not ) be using them towards. And I will happily share these questions w/ ya :)
But in the end I guess I'm on the side of cultural relativity and all that that view implies. If this sub is generally for 'believers only' and no other discourse is the norm, that's fine... I'll unsub so I'm not tempted too much.
later
-hap
Elisabeth Perrin
What did the Pope say about Evolution?
Prick
shit, its christians fault that anybody goes to hell, this little invention of hell and the idea of it being such an awful place is just plain rude, goddamn, sending all of those people to hell just because you decided it should exist i don't think thats very nice and i've got news for you I'm FROM hell and its not such a bad place, there's just lots of rednecks but there's a HUGE underground
LA REINE
the catholic church is, unfortunately, caught up in a lot of bureaucracy. apparantly they feel that changing tradition would be too harmful to the believers out there. so, we still have the male-dominated herarchy and pointing no-no fingers at horrible things like birth control. most of these things were derived from society and not from the religion itself. so it is indeed unfortunate that these things serve to identify the religion itself.
Spur
i looked in my handy dandy little bible for references to hell and it sounds like it works nothing like people claim it does. for that matter, i never found any references to satan ever leading a rebellion against heaven or being kicked out. hell is not mentioned once.
modern christian ideas are based extremely loosely upon the bible, not much at all.
endless bastard
hap- I remember something about that, but I didn't take much notice. Interesting that enough money spent can buy an apology even from the Vatican (for Galileo). Funny also that in an unscientific poll I read about 40% of the people asked thought the sun went around the earth. After stopping and thinking about it, they said "oh, wait....maybe not" but they had to try and remember.
Then again, when dealing with the Vatican, it's all according to the Mafia. Good xtian boys, there.
Marked card> I have been.....grating....to certain people here, but it was only after I got angry that they were so intent on me being "wrong" that they wouldn't even listen to a simple argument. Of course, as a former debator told me "I don't want to have an open mind - I don't have to - I believe in God." May not speak for all xtians, but that was the attitude. Either way, it's still silly to vehemently believe in something that you have no proof for.
everybody else> OS may be different, but at least THEY BOTH WORK. Unlike xtianity, in my experience. Show me one reliably documented faith healing. Show me one person who does anything out of the ordinary except babble in "tongues" when filled with the spirit of the Lord (tm). That would be a reason to believe in this omnipotent, invisible, unknowable diety. If there is no evidence for something, don't buy it. How's that for logic.
endless bastard
And I, too, have a test. It's one I've won many times before. It is:
I am just as powerful as God. More so, maybe. Here's MY proof:
Have God do something. Then, I will do the exact same thing.
Ready when you are.
Prick
well damitol
Virus
Well Demerol
hap slappy
The pope ( well really his Papal Academy of Sciences ) announced in Aug? or so, that evolution was to be considered ' a fact beyond reasonable doubt'. This was in many papers along w/ the contents of the ' new' catechism. Notably, the new catechism recognises any other religions that
acknowledge the 'one true god' as legit. ( ie moslems are now O.K. by the Pope. )
Unfortunately, the politicos running that dogma also made a giant leap backwards in other areas, such as women entering the priesthood, etc.
-hap
The Reverend Xavier T. Corbin
Hello Everyone!
Blain Nelson
EB -- I can find folks that say the same thing about Windows -- they can't get it to work. But that doesn't mean that it can't work.
All of which is beside my point. I would encourage you to read it again if you didn't understand it.
This room is making a lot more sense to group to me.
GB
I do not have any beliefs to defend.
You never really see Buddhists argueing too much, because nothing is written in stone.
Thanks. Good bye.
Saint Bob
I visited Robert Tilton's church in Dallas once. Was going to steal stuff and vandalize, but there were too many cameras, and some people were preparing for a wedding. The church is conveniently located off Harry Hines Boulevard in the titty-bar district of Dallas.
Saint Bob
Hmmm, I suppose that was a little rude, going into a church with rotten intentions. But I had sex on the floor by the altar of a Catholic church once. We left a stain.
But I'm not a bad guy, really, and I no longer consider myself a Satanist. ;) Though I do still have a copy of the Satanic Bible. Y'all ever read "The Satan Seller" by Mike Warnke? Supposedly by a born-again reformed Satanist... purportedly written to sway people away from Satan, but just like Go Ask Alice made me want to try LSD, _The Satan Seller_ made me want to serve Satan.
I still enjoy having sex in bizarre places where sex would be considered out-of-context.
Hosea
You know, God is still waiting at the door , knowcking. He has a great plan for your life.
Lady Non Sequitur
Warnke got debunked in some Christian magazine called Cornerstone a while back... never got a chance to read his book, alas (?) ... it's a self-perpetuating cycle ... teen angsts out, must be Satan, they imagine the worst, it gets reported somewhere, some other angster hears about it and decides to do it, reports come back that just as they feared, it's going on. ... gotta get that book from Back In Control on the warning signs of occultism ... that's the one that said the Star of David was a satanic symbol.
Ozzie
Well, I'm going out on my usual proverbial limb here...why is it that we Christians are always forced to defend our beliefs? Just because we choose to believe in God in a certain way, doesn't mean that you have to. Of course,we do beleive in teaching other people about God's Word. But, as far as i know, no one lately has been forced to accept it. In other words, you believe what you believe or not, and we'll believe what we believe.
Diakonos
Too true.
Blain Nelson
Ozzie -- small picky detail: they aren't. To be more specific, I won't defend my belief to anybody else. I have no need to.
GB
I don't mind Christians who have the attitude "We have our beliefs, you have yours, and we don't give you any trouble about it." in fact, that's pretty neat. The Christians that have always annoyed me are those who believe that THEY are right and really think that the crusades are still going on, convert all the infidels, etc.
I don't have much appreciation for hierarchies either, no matter what their context, specifically religious hierarchies though. It may be necessary in government.
Alinea
That pope. I donno why he is even the pope. I wonder what he's thinking.
Ozzie
Blain> I think you missed my point or I wasn't very clear. Either way, my point was that NO one should have to defend their religion. Someone doesn't believe what we believe, fine, don't believe it, just let us <whichever group it might be> practice our respective beliefs and let it go at that. Someone wants to ask questions whil trying to learn about someone's religion or about Christianity, that's something totally different. I will be more than happy to discuss it with someone. But, I'm really getting tired of people who come into this room just simply to make obnoxious and rude statements about people's religions or about their belief in Christianity. The room title IS, after all, Christianity. You don't agree with my views, fine, of course, you don't have to agree with me. But, please, I'm tired of the rude, obnoxious flames.
Lady Non Sequitur
Ozzie - funny, that's what I've heard the pagans saying all the time, too. I think it's a pretty universal function of having a religion, having other people question it. On the other hand, there are certain Christian factions, especially and particularly the fundamentalist groups, who are out to force people to accept it. In the '80s the equivalent of religious prison camps were doing quite well -- parents would send their children there to learn "discipline" ... in Texas, the religious groups have pretty much control over most textbooks (and, correspondingly, most textbooks in the U.S. come from Texas), and have been taking steps to ensure that their point of view is put forth, and that evolution is NOT mentioned in any great detail ... not to mention the prayer-in-school issue -- when I grew up, we had one Jewish boy in my class. I watched him sit through a number of events in which the entire class was warned of their damnation if they did not accept Jesus ... no one gave any thought to his presence, or even warned him of what would be discussed so he could opt not to attend -- he did have it forced down his throat. So did I.
I say live and let live. You say live and let live. Now if only the rest of the world would get a clue.
Blain Nelson
Ozzie -- I got your point. I was making a slightly different one. You were saying that no one should have to defend their religious belief. I was saying that no one does, and used myself as an example of that.
Diakonos
Kind of like our conversation regarding the Bible, Ozzie; i.e. "the Sword of the Spirit." One doesn't defend a sword. He uses it.
Ozzie
Point taken, Blain. I guess I WAS more tired than I thought. :) I know what you mean about church hiearchies <sp> Sometimes we can get so lost in the ritual, that we lose the message itself.
Alinea
GB> why do you think that Christians even bother believing what they do if they didn't think it was the correct thing?
WHoKNoWS wHAt aN iDIoT i AM
textbooks are getting better though because the state of texas is big enough they get a version with thier changes and everyone else can get a normal one.....
example was about a year ago the texas groups had hundreds of things removed form a health book or something...maybe socail studies...but had aids (all mention) and the phone numbers for aids plus many other little changes...(stuff they wanted removed).... however the textbook COmpany just made 2 versions rather then leaning towards texas as used to happed because its equally simple and such
Christianity> _