literary circle>
Ruadh
Entering late into the conversation... Poe probably was miserably depressed and was using the drugs etc. to escape that misery. A lot of (erroneous) self-medication goes on...
JayDee
wrong drugs, too
huncke the junkie
But maybe not so erroneous, Ruadh. What did Poe do? Opium or something similar, I think. Back then, they didn't have any other medicine that would have worked much better, I suspect. So his options were probably to be depressed and miserable, or take opium to relive his suffering. Also, apparently there are a percentage of depressed people who respond to opium as an antidepressant but not to any other antidepressant. Then again, he could have just done it for kicks ...
Starry
It's possible.
Liz Pearson
Name calling aside, <sigh> I agree that to get the full effect of Poe's words one needs to read his books. But, since he is used chiefly as a homework assignment by most schools these days or did anyway, I don't know if most people would be willing to get past the "but I had to read him in school" attitude. And, no, I'm not trying to be arrogant, because I have that same attitude about a lot of classic authors myself.
Ruadh
True, Huncke -- I hadn't thought of that.
I've read Poe; but, being a rather depressed teenager myself when I read his work, I found that it didn't help my state of mind much.
Lady Non Sequitur
Yeah, but i've seen the pictures Carroll took ... they don't look like anything except pictures taken by someone who really enjoyed his work ... they're not in any way lascivious ... and to my albeit inexperienced eye, don't look like the work of a pedophile. ...
Shadowknight
t'lar...Laugh.
(another example of the gross generalizations people make about a "generation" and "society" whatever those may be. ;)
I like a lot of Phillip K. Dick, I liked Gibson. I liked Poe as well.
Liked Kafka a lot as well, though I haven't read much of his work...just "Penal Colony" and "Hunger Artist". What don't I like? Hmmm. Didn't like Hemingway. Didn't like "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson. (or whoever).
*shrug* I think it's stupid to address people via those generalizations tho...as what "this generation reads". You've gotta have a good reason before doing that. (i.e. I'm making this generalization to show thus, knowing it's not quite accurate)
(trips off his soapbox and falls back into the crowd)
uncle herb
Anyone ever read "Off the Road," by Caroline Cassady?
Merky
I was reading Poe lomg before it was a homework assinment, so it was a lot easier for me to handle. But for some of my friends, it turned them off. Except for some of the messed up paragraphs, it is really easy to read. I guess having someone stand over your shoulder and say "Do this, or else," turns people off.
Ruadh
FYI, the "Alice" in question was the daughter of author George MacDonald, who wrote "The Princess and the Goblin", "The Princess and Curdie", and other great childrens' books. As well as some rather surreal books for grown-ups.
Another bit of trivia re Lewis Carroll: Queen Victoria told him she'd so enjoyed his book and asked him to send her a copy of his next work. She was surprised to receive a mathematical treatise. (Carroll was a maths professor.)
uncle herb
Alice in Chains
Buster Hymen
And the Queen wasn't, right? I mean, that WAS the point of the joke, wasn't it?
Mina
It turns me off. Ask me if I've read something, chances are, I have, but if someone FORCES me to read something...
LA REINE
i don't mind being required to read a book. as long as it's interesting and not being shoved down my throat. when someone drags you step by step thru the thing beating every last point into the ground, it loses all magic and becomes merely words.
Bookworm
True LR. I have read some required reading books that were fascinating. And then there were others that I might have liked if they had left me alone to read them on my own. Instead they beat them to death.
Megamol
The ones that I always hated were the ones that it seemed like they were only making you read because "it's good for you" . For instance Old Man and the Sea and the Red Badge of Courage. I did, however, read RBofC many years later and appreciated it a lot more than I did when I was in school. I must admit though, that with the possible exception of Tale of Two Cities I can't remember many that I really really liked at the time.....
ZooKeeper
book beating should be banned.
LA REINE
it appeared to me (and still does today) that red badge of courage was written for the sole purpose of giving teacher's fodder for their lectures on symblism and imagery.
LA REINE
ish. drop that possessive s. i hate that.
Merky
I think that the worse part about forced reading is the need to express how a story makes me feel. I usually read for entertainment, but being forced to examine myself after reading really turns me off.
Lady Non Sequitur
On the Red Badge of Courage -- story from my past -- in high school we had this very weird, very strict English teacher. Very uptight and straight-laced, for the most part, and even seniors took pains not to get on his bad side. For one of our classes, we had to read RBoC. The day of the exam, one of the other girls in my class was panicking because she had not remembered to read it. In desperation, she asked some of her friends what it was about. She made the mistake of asking two of the class clowns, who were more than happy to tell her what it was about. The Red Badge of Courage, you see, was about how this boy goes to war and while under attack, tries to retreat and has his balls blown off ... she believed every word of it and based all her answers on it, then had to face the teacher one period later after she'd realized her errors ... funny thing was, the class clowns didn't realize she thought they were serious ... they'd pulled off a far better prank by accident than they ever had on purpose ... she failed the exam, of course, but the English teacher decided her mortification at having to tell him was punishment enough.
Bookworm
True Merky. I don't see why we couldn't just be allowed to read for enjoyment. But the school system never has made a lot of sense to me.
doctor doom
I used to have an English teacher with the most incredible, monstrous heaving mammaries, back in 8th grade. I'd sprout a boner every time she leaned over me in my desk.
Ozzie
What I liked about my school (years and years ago of course) was that we could have an alternate book if we didn't like the first one. That helped a lot.
Megamol
You were lucky Ozzie...we never had that option. There were times we were allowed to pick out our own books for book reports, but assigned reading was assigned reading and there was no way out. Fortunately over the years I have managed to block most of it out of my head......
Bookworm
Unfortunately it appears that they have taken that choice away from all I've seen.
LA REINE
my school always had a quite structured idea of what literature what appropriate for what grade level. quite rigid, actually. in elementray school we read books like animal farm and to kill a mockingbird. and believe me, we understood those books. then in the eigth grade they tried to shove tkam ate us but since a sizable majority of the class had already read it we could choose from a selection of books, none of which were terribly challenging. altho that was what introduced me to ray bradbury (via dandelion wine) and so i'm thankful for that. then in the nith grade our textbook cam e equipped with animal farm so that was bludgeoned into our skulls yet again.
the interesting thing was, that when we read animal farm in the 6th grade, we read it examining the character interactions etc.. and were told the historical relvance afterward. in that way we were allowed to analyze the happenings ourselves. and then the historical perspective just clinched the overall icture. in the 9th grade, every point was laboriously picked apart and our thinking was done for us by the considerate textbook editors. grrrr. they ruined it for me.
ZooKeeper
we didn't have that choice in High School, but in 7th grade we were given a selection of five books, of which we had to read and write about three. I liked that much much better...
The Wanderer
This is sounding very much like whining to me....
I'm sure you'd all have the power to read books ON YOUR OWN. Am I mistaken? We have to read some pretty dry stuff right now, but I've gone out on my own and read "A Clockwork Orange," "Night," (by Ellie Wiesel) and "Azazel" on my own. No whining. Just a lot of good reading. And I'm not done, either. I'll be looking for more books to devour.....
ZooKeeper
Wanderer -- the point was not a case of not having power to read on your own, the point was how underwhelming books can become if you're forced to read them. Forced, you know? as in, having little choice to do so assuming you actually want a grade out of the class?
Kagro X
It were never like that.
Corpus Delectable
Lost Soul's by Poppy Z. Brite is a great book, in my own opinion. It's the journey of this bored & somewhat confused gothic teen who runs away from home & finds out he's really a vampire. (not the mythical kind but a similar type that can eat real food & drink & are very close to humans). Very emotional, well-told story that gets heavily into the thoughts & emotions of a young boy & his journey of self-discovery. It also goes into the lives & thoughts of some of the people he meets along his way & has some nice gay love scenes, too. :)
shoe inhalants
Kagro would give a million bucks to buy beer for students. Like I said, he's stupid and abnormal.
Merky
Oh the joys of being forced to read. The journal entries, the essays, quote memorization.
And since I'm one of those people who like to read one book at a time, all of the time spent on school reading ate most of my personal reading time.
Kagro X
I'd say that would be generous and kind, actually. What would you have me give it for? To buy cock rings for the gay kids?
Corpus Delectable
I had a cute reading teacher in 7th grade who looked like Sandy Duncan...
Lady Non Sequitur
nah, Kagro, buy it for the frat jocks ... then link their rings together until they explode from all their pent-up homophobia...
Megamol
that book sound cool CD..I'm gonna look for it...
Ozzie
Well, I can only say that I DID read a lot outside of the classroom. From "the Exorcist" (which my Mom gave me to read, incidentally) to the "White Mountains" which is sci-fi fantasy, sorry I can't remember the author. We all read in my family and my brother and I were always encouraged in that area. We were very lucky in that way.
doctor doom
I think we are exhibiting stereotyping behavior by assuming that all frat jocks are pent-up homophobes.
The Wanderer
Tell me, all....WHAT makes a book seem so forbidding when it's "forced upon you" at school? I always have tried to take it as a way to learn about something new, a way to learn about a new author, new world, or new topic that I could read in the future.......
Lady Non Sequitur
hey, stereotypes have ta come from somewhere ... on the other hand, I think it has more to do with the "frat" part ... even the gay frat seems to be pretty obnoxius...
<some apologies to any frat guys on the board. but then again, lots of people here are pretty obnoxious.
huncke the junkie
Maybe, except for all those explosions last weekend on Frat Row at Kagro's old school.
Kagro X
Yes, we all know that there are many kind and caring fraternity men in today's colleges and universities. And let's not forget the growing number of co-ed fraternities.
And that's not to mention the stunning brutality with which sorority women have often drummed both suspected and admitted lesbians from among their numbers, and often from the campus entirely.
But, regardless, I think the fraternity men would be nearly as happy to get free cock rings as they would be getting free beer. Beer's easy to come by in a fraternity. Cock rings are a different story entirely.
animal crackers
Sorority women have been drumming out lesbians with stunning brutality? Tell us more.
chester cheetah
Corpus: I had some interesting correspondence with Poppy Z. Brite over the [ InterNet. She's rally into the Gothic thing more than the vampirism, so she said, and wanted to do something special about exploring the gothic relationships, especially among bored teens.
Actually, her vision of vampires and mine are really very similar, the difference being that her vampires inevitably devour the mother at birth.
ZooKeeper
Wanderer -- it isn't so much "forbidden" as it is choved down your throat. it's kinda like a food you've been forced to eat and therefore hate? I love reading, I read a lot and my older child learned to read when he was four, probably because he saw us with books in our hands all the time. my five year old is now beginning to show a real interest, time to haul out the McGuffy set again... (out? as if it'd ever been away!) but there _is_ a *real* difference between reading because you want to and reading because someone else has said this is what you're going to read or else, whic is unfortunately how it's presented.
Bookworm
Wanderer- I agree with ZK. And another thing is having the book beaten to death point by point. That was one of the major turn offs for me.
Torch Song
Wanderer--How would you feel if you were a 3.9 student, working at 100% in a class, and the teacher (who believed that Freshmen were a form of life slightly lower than earthworms) informed the class that *regardless of all other scores on homework & tests*, it would not be possible to get an "A" in his class unless you read "Great Expectations" and turned in a comprehensive (10 pages...typed...ye gods...) report on the book?
How to make a student with a love of books hate a book, part 1.
(Courtesy of my first year in high school...yep, really happened.)
Oh, BTW -- it wasn't even a literature class...
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