Soap Box>
Blade Runner
What's the latest B&M? I'm still hung up on those stupid slow drivers in the fast lanes!!!!! Ugggghhhhhh!!!
Lightning
I know. Get the fuck out of the way!
Blade Runner
No shit!!! People have no clue... they just drive there stupid selves on down the freeway ignoring what's going on around them!!!
Italian Stallion
That's why we hope when you look to the skies... you look to northwest Airlines.
Roya
Neat-o.
Shane
I think I'm cool.
Roya
I think your ju s not...
Darkwing Duck
Scorp, U/L it here so others can have it!
Spur
I'm cooler than ALL OF YOU.
James T Kirk
Yea, do it. I'll make a "Hacker's" room... Files hall...
Spur
Why is there a m before all those messages?
Roya
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMwho knows...
Snailracer
It must be Roya's fault.
Roya
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmwhat made you possibly think that??????
Shane
it could only happen here
Spur
Look, he's gone on another surname trip!
bill
Hey, stop it....
Spur
hey, why don't YOU stop it!
--David Letterman's Book of 1001 Snappy Comebacks
Blade Runner
I just got done watchin' Raiders of the Lost Ark... To this day I can't stand the end, all those boxes in storage and the Ark gettin' 'filed' along with them. I know it's not a true story but you just know that the government does things like that with other things... All those stupid political hacks head up commitees to study things that they really have no understanding of... free speech is another(FCC), in fact, most of the government regulatory agencies have no true understanding of what it is they're regulating....... it's frustrating that they can influence research and our lives in those ways!
Lightning
It's frustrating, yes, but there's not much we can do about it, unless we are willing to take a lot of time and energy to cut through the red tape and get intertwined in the system... Only then can we make a difference...
Roya
Hey, i watched it too! I LOVE cliff hangers like that..they're so cool.
deadman
the final scene is way cool. the overwhelming power of beurocracy over anything else (including religion and things para-normal.) wow.
Chris the Shaych
Joy. Yippie. Hooray. Gov't bashing. Yay. What fun.
Blade Runner
bored Chris?? Come on, get in on it, it's 'politically correct' thing to do... hehe
Scorpion
A year or two ago the secret service confiscated the only copy of a RPG about computer hacking in the 24th century (Cyberpunk I think). They also took 2 computers containing all of the buisness informantion for Steve Jackson Games. The called the manuals a "handbook for computer crime". The manuals contain barely enought information about running a modern computer much less break into other computers. After 3 months, the charges against Steve Jackson Games were dropped. Durring the time the computers and the game were gone, the company lost $250,000. This is the scary part for me because anyone with any knolage of computers could tell that the game had nothing to do with computer hacking in this century. It was just kinda a blanket sweep, just arrest anyone who was even slightly suspicious. One guy was woken up at 4:00 in the morning with a gun to his head. For all this work, they only convicted about 10 people in an operation that covered almost the whole country.
Blade Runner
If the charges against Steve Jackson Games were dropped, what were the 10 people convicted of? That story is pretty scary though... I always liked the Car Wars role-playing-games, did they have a problem with those too, for some reason?
Spur
The 10 people convicted had no affiliation with Steve Jackson games. They were members of a hacker group called "Legion of Doom" that hacked the 911 numbers and fucked the entire emergency call thing one happy day. Steve Jackson games was using them for information on their cyberpunk manual and ideas and so was in somebody's computer. That is why they were suspected.
Blade Runner
I see, sounds like a bunch of over zealous, power tripped, 1984 police people if you ask me... At least in reference to what they did to Steve Jackson Games... Messing with 911 is stupid, I mean why?, all it does is hurt a bunch of people who might truly be in need of help from the system...
Captain James T Kirk
Yea, sounds like something Keith would do... Truly... He would...
Shane
down with keith
Shane
up with 911
Isis
damnit...I still can't find the 11 key...
Captain James T Kirk
Har har har... THERE"S NO 911 KEY!!!
Stupid Fuckhead
I don't get it
Captain James T Kirk
Oh, shut up..
Scorpion
There was also teh little matter of credit card fraud and copyright violation. Steve Jackson Games did an interview or 2 with the hackers but that wasn't why he was busted. The Secret Service heard he was making a manual on computer hacking. Too bad they didn't investigate it any further. Also, not all 10 were from the Legion of Doom. The Phrack Boys got nailed and The Mentor too. There's a cool paper written by The Mentor in Phrack #9 I think, check it out. Damn kids, tying up the phone lines, they're all the same...
Roya
speaking of "teh", i just bought a copy of the Tao Te(h) Ching....cool copy, it's pocket size...
Captain James T Kirk
Thats what you where buying in Walden's?
Captain James T Kirk
I was gunna get Star Trek 6 novel, but i didn't wanna wait in the line...
Roya
the line wasn't all that long.... yeah, i was buying that, but the cover was bent...i think i'm gonna return it, and ask them to order a decent copy..all of them were bent.
Captain James T Kirk
Don't ya hate bent paper backs? A few in my ST colection are kinda bent...
Captain James T Kirk
Did you see the line in Wharehouse records? Quite long...
Roya
Hmmm..i passed by a couple of tape stores, i don't remember..i decided not to go in, cause they were do crowd..wait, i went to one, to find that REM tape/Cd, and they didn't have anything by them...it was weird. Mabye i was looking in the wrong section or something. Bent paperbacks are a pain, but the one i got looks really nice, and the bend sort of really makes it look bad...
Lightning
Ouch! Or Delta... "The Supercollider..." I shouldn't talk about that, though... I'm flyin' Delta to Florida...
TUNA
you'll burn!
Blade Runner
Doesn't Every Leave The Airport(Delta), 'Noisy engines?? We'll shut 'em off.'(Delta) (singing)---> 'Deltaaaaaa, We're learning to fly and it shows.'
Captain James T Kirk
Ha...
Scorpion
What even worse is when it's dark, foggy and your tyring to get somewhere you've never been before and you can't see where you're going and there's some idiot behind you trying to go 80 in a 45 with a 10 foot sight distance. But slow people on the freeway really annoy me.
Isis
Oh god, I was going home last night, through downtown, I swear you couldn't see STREET LIGHTS two blocks down...it was bad...although it had cleared up in the middle of town...
Blade Runner
fog can be a pain...
Spur
look, i ride 20 miles a day on my bicycle, in pitch black (6 am abouts). now that is cool. it's about time to get some gloves.
deadman
you've been doing this without clouds? oh my. fog is a godsend
Spur
gloves.
deadman
clouds? oh god.
Spur
cyrus
Geoff King
We are lazy and get paid too much. I believe the part of "Getting paid too much" though lands on the top executive jobs and not the lower class blue collar jobs. To get pissed off by a remark like that is pretty pathetic. If you think you work your ass off, and get paid what you should, you shouldn't bitch. If not, then well, what are you bitching about? Why don't you do something about it. But NO! This is America, where we piss and moan cause we can't get our way.
Blade Runner
Spur> Changing over one speaker of parliment is exactly what I'm saying. If we don't like the comments, don't buy their products. If the people of the country who spoke the insult don't like that then they can get rid of that leader and I'll trade with them again. This is exactly the same thing we are doing in the middle east, except for different reasons. My point being is that I'm not going to channel my money into a country that continually sends out degrading insults... we may complain to them about trade differences to the point of them being sick of it, but we are not insulting them through the press. People will always give insults about other countries, the average person on the street, but through diplomatic channels and by a person who should know better..... that's ridiculous. I guess I have a problem with this remark, and the one a few years ago, because I don't feel they are true. I don't think most Americans are lazy and overpaid, or less intelligent by birth. I look at it as a direct insul me, and I don't have to take it. I will then defend myself, not by throwing insults back, but by not buying Japanese products. If you think Americans are basically lazy, overpaid, and stupid then this argument is irrelevant...right?
Spur
all of this is jus stereotyping. that japanese official and now Geoff are stereotyping when they say that americans are lazy and get paid too much. Sure, some do, but all? not a chance. but by the same token, bladerunner is stereotyping Japanese people if he assumes they all believe something merely from one person's statements. Or even from several people's statements.
Let me contrast what Bladerunner said just now with another possibility. Looking at things from a different angle is often a good idea. Bladerunner said that if the Japanese do not believe this to be true, that they can get the official out of office to prove it. Now, George Bush insulted the head of state of Japan by throwing up on him. Obviously, there was no intention to do that (I hope), but still, getting thrown up on is pretty insulting, no? This would probably be okay if he publicly apologized for it, but instead Bush just decided to make a few jokes about it. What if Japanese person decided that he wasn't going to eat with any americans because they all threw up on Japanese people? At least until the President made a public apology or until the american people pushed george bush out of office to show that he was a disgrace for puking, or for puking and not apologizing. How does that sound?
stderr
Well, Jesse Jackson probably said, "I gotta go to the bafroom" at least once too but that doesn't mean that he's not racist. Show me something that he's done in public that would further some cause that wasn't racist.
stderr
What do you say to the idea that all the people who this Japanese guy was calling lazy get off their collective dead asses and work to take back market share? We are at our best we they think we don't have a chance....
Spur
blade runner, the lack of public apology WAS deliberate, and they could see that as a deliberate insult. and is it fair to economically 'punish' a group of people for something a leader said when that isn't even likely to punish the leader at all?
Spur
listen bill, you can't go around accusing people of being racists until proven that they aren't. I think in this specific case the burden of proof is on you or Steve to show that he is a racist, not on people defending Jackson.
Steve Baxter
Spur>
You have our proof (if that's what you want to call it.) stderr was asking if you have anything to refute it.
Isis
Spur - there was nothing to appoligize publicly for, it was an accident, I'm sure that the japanese officials realized that, and I'm sure he appoligized privatly to the people involved.
Spur
ah, but they can think differently. if somebody threw up on you, wouldn't you expect them to apologize? instead of making jokes about it? i think i might be offended if somebody threw up on me and then went home and joked about it with their family. (well, actually, >I< wouldn't be that offended, but a lot of people would be).
Spur
I have seen your 'evidence', steve, and to tell, the truth, you don't even have any direct quotes. You say that he makes statements about 'the black people of america'. well, hey, is that racist? i don't think so. is it racist to describe somebody as black when you're asked about them? I remember quite a while ago, somebody on the net asked if Malcolm Petcher was a racist. You were one of the people that didn't think he was, and he made many more race-specific observations than Jesse Jackson does. The challenge still remains: Can you produce something Jackson said that is racist?
Blade Runner
Spur> ask Saddam if it's fair? We are doing the economic boycott dance over there and he seems to be losing power, and favor among his people. I'm not saying that the situations are the same, quite the opposite, but economic forces can send a message. A message that we don't need to take rude, uncalled-for, out-of-line insults. And, as for the Japanese possibly being insulted by Bush's lack of a public apology, well, they could do the same thing. I wonder, though, how much it would effect our economy since don't ship nearly as much there as they ship here. Might even open some investment opportunities to American investors? That's all just speculation though.... Do you think the remark, the past and present one, was fair, diplomatic, and polite? Will it help foster understanding between the countries? If it's uncalled for should we just sit around, feeding money into their economy, without at least showing our disapproval of the remark?
An economic reaction may not be the best way to express disapproval, but it does seem to work in todays society. I'm open to suggestions?! we get held responsible for what our leaders say. Why shouldn't the Japanese people do the same. I am also not trying to say we should "punish" the Japanese people by economic boycott, I just don't feel that we should be responsible to support the Japanese people when we are being insulted like this.
Steve Baxter
Spur> The challenge remains? I don't think so. Those were direct quotes. Your problem in understanding is explained by your statements:
"You say that he makes statements about 'the black people of america'. well, hey, is that racist? i don't think so."
That's it. You don't think so. I will probably not convince you either. That's OK. I DO KNOW, for a fact, that if I said publicly, "I will not rent to "the black people of America", only to "the white people of America", I would be not only considered a racist, I would be open to lawsuits for punitive damages. What is the differance between Jackson and me? Why would I be considered a racist for one remark and you don't think he is when he does it regularly?
stderr
I don't have a joke here, I just like typing "Malcolm".
Spur
Bladerunner -- You're right, economic methods are an excellent way of showing disapproval. the only problem is that by doing that i doubt that you will 'punish' the person making the remark; instead you will probably be punishing a lot of people that don't necessarily feel that way. it was not a nice thing to say, it was not polite, it was not diplomatic. i'll give you that. personally, i've decided to start buyuing more american goods instead of japanese goods, but that is only because i think economically the us could use more help, you know?
Spur
Listen, steve, all i need is one direct quote. you say that was a direct quote. but the only direct quote was 'the black people of america." i can come up with as many non-racist statements involving "the black people of america" as you can come up with racist statements, i am sure. if you want to show that he is a racist then i need more than "the black peopple of america". if you have an incident of him saying "i only rent to black people in america" then fine, you're right, that is evidence of racism. but do you?
Steve Baxter
Let me put it this way, Spur. Please write a statement that is not racist the uses the phrase, "the Norwegian people of America" as its subject. Try to make a statement that does not seperate Norwegians from the rest of the people. Even saying, "The Norwegian people of Amreica are just like everyone else." still seperates one group. It is, therefore, racist.
Can you do it?
Dr. Technical
I don't think it's so much that the public is slow to percieve how much better Detroit cars are now. In truth, they aren't much better than they were 10 years ago. The only areas they've improved in are those they've had to improve in either by government regulation or loss of sales. It's not enough to spend millions on television ads saying "GM is putting quality on the road" and "At Ford, quality is Job 1" . I feel the real problem is that the public was slow to understand how shabby a product Detroit has manufactured for the past 30 years. Detroit's philosophy has, for too long, been that the main engineering principal is to get people to buy cars off the showroom floor. Not to manufacture quality transportation or a product worthy of the country that made them wealthy and powerful. After you drive it off the showroom floor and they have your money they could care less how good it is. Kind of like the Tandy stderr was talking about in the other sub. They have been spoiled by quick, large profits and a trusting public for so long they no longer know how to design cars. I don't care if they are building better cars I STILL won't buy one. It is they who have betrayed this country.
I'm not overly fond of the Japanese and I don't care for the remarks that official made. As long as they make Volvos I wont have to put up with The Japanese or Detroit.
Funny thing about that Japanese guy calling americans lazy then turning around and complaining about Japan-bashing, huh?
Isis
My dad say's that G.M. has no idea how much it costs to manufacture a car. He says that they base the cost on what a car of it's class SHOULD cost, based upon what foriegn cars with comprible features & prestigue cost AFTER tariffs & such are added. In the 70's Japan tried to give the U.S. a chance and they imposed on themselves a limit to the number of cars imported, thus driving the cost up in the U.S. of Japanese cars, U.S. companies responded by raised their own prices insead of improving their product.
Cthulhu
I think that the point on racism here is...anytime you make referance to a persons race or a group of people by race, it is racist...BY DEFINITION...it pertains to and seperates according to RACE. Now...if a political cantidate continuously refers to specific races they are being racist.]
For that matter (and here I get in trouble) affirmative action is Verrrrry racist. It is an attempt to solve a problem from both the wrong viewpoint and using the wrong methods. Rather than adressing the needs of minorities as a group who have a higher percentage of poorly educated and poor people...and should therefore be helped...why not help everybody in that situation? That way you still solve the problem, but you do not attempt to correct one situation (with some racist contributing factors), by making a policy that is blatently racist.
If we were in a european nation we would probably not have to deal with affirmitive action, as most of them have better education and health care systems...because they deal with the common root of many problems..."Poverty". To put it simply, they figured out that the government has to control the greed of business people or the nation goes to hell in a handbasket.
Because...because greedy people will do anything that they can get away with, and many of those things are bad ideas for a steady growing economy (see also investment banking - buying and selling companies).
Nique
Steve, your idea of racism is a bit more, shall we say, fine tuned, than most people's. Any time anyone ever points out a distinction, positively or negatively, you call it racist. I call that bullshit. There are differences and those differences don't of necessity mean that we can't be united, they simply lend "spice" to the fabric of our society. Sentences that start with "the xxxx people of America" aren't in themselves racist if they simply point out something that xxxx group has in common with itself but not necessarily with others in the general populace. Am I racist if I express a concern for "people with glasses"? Or "people with hearing aids"? Or "foster kids"? Nope. Each of those groups has something different to offer and different needs. They're part of the whole, certainly, and when I talk about the generality of people I include them. But sometimes there is a need to start a sentence with "the xxxx people of yyyy" that precludes separatism. 'Course, I don't expect that my saying this is gonna make a difference, since you and I have had this disagreement for as long as we've known each other. (I still love ya. )
Spur
hmm.. i dunno, i'm starting to drift towards steve's side of things. i mean, we've talked about what is racism before, and i had a completely different viewpoint if it was a different subject. i think that it is not a correct thing to do to talk about the "xxx of yyy" as nique put it, but by ther other token, i am not willing to call anyone who does a racist. i think the term 'racist' is pretty damn strong and talking about the 'xxx of yyy' is pretty mild, even if it isn't a good thing to do.
Spur
i'm starting to get confused. the jackson argument is merging with the japanese argument. are you talking about jackson or the japanese, blade?
stderr
Just bringing up race is not what makes Jesse a racist. Pointing out the differences between Blacks and Whites or whatever isn't racist. Is it sexist to point out that fact that women are different from men?
Jesse Jackson is a racist because he constantly trys to pit one race agaist another and because he makes negitive comments about one race against another that are untrue. Also because he is pro-Affirmative Action and other very racist programs, he can certainly be considered a racist.
Spur
Can you give me one example of him doing that, bill? an exact quote this time. (i mean, about negative comments and pitting one race against another. i know he's for affirmative action.)
stderr
Spur, I've never written down an exact quote of Jesse Jackson's. It's kinda hard now because he's not running for anything at the moment. I'll get back to ya in '96....
Spur
well, could you tell me something that he's said, then. I'll probably end up saying that he never said that, but i still want to know what you're talking about.
Steve Baxter
Cuthul has the right idea IMHO. Affirmative Action needs to be based upon need, not race, ethnic backround, ancestoral backround, or any other description that seperates us into groups. Poor people need to be helped. If ALL the poor are one race, then ALL the help would go to that race. But it would not be based on race. That is blatantly contrary to our Constitution. I am SURE that Affirmative Action in its current state is in violation of the US Constitution.
stderr
I think forcing employers to hire people even because they are poor is wrong too.
Spur
I don't like quotas myself so much either. but other forms of affirmative action are not so bad. even so, i think i agree with cthulhu too.
stderr
Give me a form of Affirmative Action that isn't evil?
Isis
I don't like it either, but I can see the need for it and why it's there. It should probably be stopped, but there are people out there that won't hire people of certain races.
Cthulhu
I think that the only rational way to aproach afirmative action is, as I said before, to base it on need, not on race. I you want people to get an equal opportunity then you are going to have to give them an equal chance on all the bits of life that nature hasn't rigged by genetics. That means an equal minimum education for all americans, and an equal chance for that education to stick, which means enforcing all the laws against child abuse - physical, mental, sexual...whatever. How is little alice going to learn when she spends all day feeling evil and dirty for what her father does to her every night? We need to realistically address all of the factors that we can reasonably control in the development of a childs life. That includes good nutrition (children denied good nutrition, especially protein, end up learning disabled). It includes PREVENTIVE medical care - not this drug you up and cut it out mentality that is so pervasive in this country. It means protecting our kids from criminals, including the ones that they live with.
Giving people real affirmitive action is not a little job. It involves a basic return to morality. I don't honestly believe that it will happen.
"And ye shall know the truth...and the truth shall make you synical"
stderr
It's not the government's business to make people hire people for whatever reason. That is the choice of the people who are hiring. Would you make the KKK hire a Black? Would you make some Rabbi hire a palistinien? Maybe you would, but that's really not your right. Geez, whatever happened to freedom?
Rapper
That was a very good artical Cthulhu.
Spur
bill, affirmative action is any action taken to end (in it's usual context) discrimination. That can be as simple as education about discrimination and why it is bad, or it could be something much more complicated, ranging all of the way up to quotas and beyond.
Steve Baxter
We were talking about "Affirmative Action".
stderr
Spur, you do enjoy defining terms in such a way that debate is impossible, don't you?
Spur
It sure makes things easier, Bill.
stderr
DON'T BUY GOVERNMENT BONDS!!!!!! x
Spur
I wasn't planning on it. Why not?
Sassy 1
He defines it in a way that is so long winded and full of circles that we don't WANT to debate with him.
Dream Child
Definatly.
Dream Child
Quite the contrary.
stderr
Spur, if we stop supporting the deficit, they will have to stop sooner while there may be a chance to save us all. DON'T BUY BONDS!!!!!
Steve Baxter
There >is< some logic to that. (I think.)
Spur
wait a minute... there's something wrong in modemland... i smell sarcasm.
stderr
What do you mean "give more education opportunity to people"? Are you going for quotas in schools?
Spur
Well how bout more financial aid for people who need it for college? that is one area that is sorely lacking.
Steve Baxter
How about making college tuition easily affordable?
stderr
I don't agree. I think the amount of money you have should have nothing to do with government grants. Actually, I don't think there should be government grants. I'm for a self-sustaining all-loan based college finacing fund. No, more Pell Grants or other free money. If you need money, they loan it to you. If you don't, you certainly won't ask for it. (This always gets me in trouble with the youth..... I even brought this up when I was running for Vice President of SPSCC ASB.... My belief that we should end Social Security gets me in trouble with the old people. My belief that all farm subsidies should end gets me in trouble with farmers. Being Right gives one a lot of enemies.....)
Steve Baxter
I would agree with lending the money for education. As long as no one is denied the loan. (Well, maybe it has to go directly to the school so someone can't spend it on pizza and beer.) With a good education, everyone who makes it through college would be able to re-pay the loan. So the fund would become self-sustaining. (Very close to my idea for a private college fund that would work very similar.)
Cthulhu
Stderr...
The purpose of social security is keeping people from starving to death. I hope that by saying that you wish to abolish it, that you are not saying something as silly and inflamitory as "let the old folks starve". The idea behind social programs is very simple. MORALITY. It is not moral, in a nation this rich, to allow a person to starve or go without needed medical attention simply because they are old. Here you have a hypothetical person, perhaps 75 years old, who has worked their whole life paying taxes to the federal government and generally contributing to society. So instead of respecting this person (like in the orient..old people must be doing something right to have lived that long...), what would you have us do? There is a basic social moral contract between people who live in a civilized society. It encompasses everything from not slicing up the family and serving them for brunch (bound to get you talked about) to the other basic rights and responsibilties that are common to human belief. AMoung those ideas is the idea that allowing others to suffer is bad.
Rolling Stone
What foolishness???
Spur
I guess i better withdraw the brunch menu for tomorrow then...
stderr
The idea isn't to make anyone starve. There isn't anyone starving in America anyway.
Sassy 1
Oh, yeah?
Spur
i bet you i know what he's gonna say...
stderr
Am I going to say that you should show me someone in America who is starving and then if you do, I'll ask why they don't go to the many places where they can get free food as well as apply for Welfare and all the other freebies our tax money pays for?
Cthulhu
stderr:
Acording to the republican run government (who don't like the figures either) 1/4 of american childern go hungry (no food at all for at least 1 day) each month. 1/2 of the people who live below the poverty level are children. Oh, and 50% of the children in our schools qualify for free school breakfast and lunches.
stderr
Now your not even starting to make sense, Cthulhu. First they are starving and then they get free breakfast and lunch. And anyone can get a free dinner in this town.
And guess what? The government will give anyone (especially with a family) food stamps valued at several hundred dollars a month. Certainly far more than you could spend on food. The fact is that the only people who are starving are people who are too drugged up or stupid to find all the free handouts.
I also like how you define "starving" as "not eating for one day a month." Tell you sob story to people who are really starving, in Africa.
Sassy 1
What about all those children who are locked up in closets and beaten by their parents. THEY are starving.
Captain James T Kirk
You know? I've noticed something about Starving children's families.(This is just the ones i've seen, but, i don know..) well, useally their mothers arerather over wait... (this may not be true for the majority of um, but, from what i've seen...), So, these kids are starving, while there mother's are OVER WAIT???? Kinda screwy, if ya ask me...
Spur
Bill, he said "go hungry", not "starve". And i think the point that he was trying to make was that despite being allowed free school lunches,most people simply don't apply for these things. Teh bureacracy is simply too overwhelming.
stderr
What is so overwhelming about signing up for free lunch? But really, Spur, what is your point? That people "go hungry" because it's too much trouble to get help from the government? If you don't even have the get-up-and-go to move on down to the local Welfare office and apply for Foodstamps or whatever, I don't think any help from anyone is going to help you. I'm sure there are people who find feeding themselves too much of an effort too.
Spur
the problem is with education and people that just don't know how to fill the things out, bill. there's no one out there offering to help people fill the forms out. and yeah, a lot of people don't care. but is that fair for their kids?
stderr
No one is there offering help to fill out the forms? What do all those DSHS people do with their time? There are really that many parents who don't c**B0100000027fed4
**B0100000027fed4
care if their kids live or die? (I'm speaking here, of course, of the ones who are doing drugs.....)
Sassy 1
Enlightenment is nice, isn't it? Yes, there are a hell of a lot of parents out there that don't care. We have them in our house. Go down to the library and look up "Child abuse" and "Child murder" in the magazine files listed. You'll see how many parents don't care. There are stories I've heard about that haven't been in magazines. The baby was crying, so Mom threw it against the wall and killed it. Children locked in closets and fed every three or four days, or when they're good. Worse things. Better things.......
Rolling Stone
Chilren thrown all the way across a big room by their hair. That's sad. Or a 2-3 year old boy hasn't ever seen a guy. And the mom set's him in the dude's lap. The boy slaps the man on the cheek (like every little 2-3 yrs. old) and the man throws the kid across the room. Or a girl is dropped on her head because she pulled her mom's hair. The list goes on and on and on. Or this girl and her brother are fighting (like typical brother and sister) the uncle is babysitting and the uncle here's the kids fighting. He goes into the room were the kids are and litterly MAKES them fight each other. With hands and fists. There are a lot of child abusers out there! Or this girl is a binger (dosen't know when to stop eating) and eats about 1/2 lbs. of candy out of 1 lbs. Her dad get's home, see's the wrapper's and makes her eat a BIG (like those SUPER BIG tupper-ware bowls) bowl of cereal and about 1/2 a pound of sugar. Now that would be enough to make anybody sick for at least a month. I could go on and on and on and on.........but I'm not going to, cause I think I've made my point. If not I could tell more? (If anybody has a strong stomach.)
This stuf is sad.
But it's a fact of life.
And unless someone get's their
buts in gear, it will ALWAYS
happen.
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
stderr
But those problems can't be fixed by spending more money giving food or money away. Clearly if someone illegally prevents someone else from eating, they will go hungry. That's hardly the point made by people who claim we need to spend tons more money on welfare and other freebies.
Captain James T Kirk
Excuse me... I'm eating... I'll just skip this room for a little while......
Cthulhu
Food satmps do not pay for more groceries than you could possibly eat. The normal allotment for 1 person is around $115 per month, for 2 $206. Now if you have no health problems and no children you could barely get by if you eat lots of potatoes and pasta.
Stderr: By your comments about food stamps and grocery costs, you are either uninformed on what people really get from DSHS or you have never purchased your own food for a family.
Spur
Things are also cheaper here than other places. That's one problem i'll admit. Usually government benefits are not locally based and so the amount of money does not take into account those sort of things (i'd say more, but i gotta go...)
stderr
Oh, please, one person can live on much less than $100 per month for food. I know I sure can. I know many people who don't beg from the government do. Cthulhu, your comments show that you are part of the problem.
Spur
bill, move to LA and try to live on 100 dollars a month for food.
stderr
Are you saying that food costs more (by a great amount) in CA? BTW, why would I be such a fool as to move to a place that costs more? Anyway, I could live on $25 a week (food) quite well if I so chose. Of course I could also blow that all on one meal.
Cthulhu
stderr. The problem is the amount that people get per person. It isn't based on ages of the choldren. A teeager eats a great deal more than an infant. Also, what about people who will suffer sever medical problems if they don't eat a special diet. Oh I forgot, you don't believe in compassion.
Cthulhu
As I was just saying. The amount of food stamps that people can get isn't handled very well. Also Stderr, contrary to your first post, not everyone, (you have to make very little money)...is eligible for food stamps - healthy men without children are not eligible for welfare, and also get no medical help unless they are in a life threatening emergency...and even then you have a very limited time to get the forms completed and submitted, your your ilness had better not be very long.
Oh, and I just saw the presidents addres on health care. There will be no socialied medicine in his plan, or federal insurance. There will also be no regulation of the health care industry. He seems to believe that the unregulated free market system that got us into this mess, will get us out of this mess!?!?! George Bush - ya have to luv the guy...dry comedy at its worst.
stderr
It's good to hear that there won't be socialized medicine. There is no trouble for any normal person eating for a month on $100 worth of food. Why should tax payers pay to let these people have the high priced food you seem to think they deserve. Well, I'm sorry but 'entitlements' are bullshit.
Spur
yes, it is more expensive in CA. And whoever said that this is high priced food, bill? i want to know your sample 25 dollar grocery list, bill. i'll check tehem out and see how much nutritionary value there is.
stderr
I have you know that we've been through this food thing on GEnie and people all over the country think they can (and in fact are) live on $25 per week food.
Dr. Technical
HEY! Don't give stderr any ideas about slicing people up and serving them!
stderr
I think buying expensive food with Food Stamps and then running out at the end of the month is part of the problem.
Cthulhu
I think that the way to attack this medical cost business is to regultae the hell out of all medical related industries...the same way utilities are regulated. The people in charge of these businesses have already proven that they are too greedy to be trusted to do it alone. Just give them maximum profit margins. Everyone seems to think that the other guy can afford to be nicked for a few bucks more...and we are the ones who end up paying for it all.
stderr
Oh, neat, Cthulhu == socialism.
Dr. Technical
No, not socialism, responsible government. The McReagan boys showed us that regulation is necessary. Now we need to get a responsible administration in the White House that understands the meaning of the public trust.
stderr
Here's another statement that doesn't have any facts backing it up, now from Dr. Technical. In what way did the Reagan admin. show that we need more regulation? Are you going to bring up the S&L mess? Well, I'm not so sure it show regulation to be the problem. I think it showed how stupid it is to mix socialism and capitalism. We need to stop insuring $100000 for every account people have. This is crazy. All people do is look for the highest return, damn the risk. Well, let's bring risk back into investment. Sounds like we need less government involvment there....
Steve Baxter
Have the state pay for drugs? !!!???
You want me to pay for something I don't believe in and won't use myself?
I will personally fight that! It's bad enough that my insurance will pay for Medical doctors (drug doctors) but not Naturopathic doctors. In other words, the insurance I pay $350 per month for is nearly valueless to me. BTW: Naturopathic doctors go through the full 8 years of school, just like MD's.
Surgery is the ONLY thing medical doctors are good for.
Spur
I still want to know Bill's 25 dollar grocery list. C'mon, bill, enlighten us.
Captain James T Kirk
Top Romin... Tom Romin... Those big cheap bottles of beer.(the ones at fred myer)(My dad gets those, he's cheap)... Crackers, and bread.
Scorpion
Ramen
Spur
Top Ramen has no nutritional value at all. It's just all starch.
Spur
Sweden is actually democratic socialist. Yes, despite current propaganda, the two are not mutually exclusive.
stderr
It's just that socailism doesn't work.
Spur
i'm not sure that i completely agree, stderr. sweden is doing pretty nicely.
stderr
I think not.
Roya
Top Ramen is good.
Steve Baxter
The Swede I know said if he earned over a certain amount, he was taxed at 105% of his income. In other words, he came to this country because here he can work hard and become comfortable. In Sweden, he said, he could stay home and do nothing and live better than if he worked, because it costs money to work. (Work clothes, transportation, etc.) And the differance was very little. It was like not working and earning $5000 per year or working full time and earning $7000 per year. Who would work full time for that?
This is close to what I see happening here. It's not anywhere near that bad yet. But if we don't guard against it, it will get that way. In the US, I can still work hard, invest wisely, and retire in 10 to 15 years. (I only woke up and started investing 10 years ago. I will retire from logging this year.) In Sweden, I would be poor all my life with NO HOPE of ever improving. I could not live like that. I don't want to leave that for my children.
I agree that we need affordable health care. From what I've seen, we have it pretty much now. I can cite cases where the state (you and I) has paid the bill for catastrophic health care. But I don't agree that drugs are necessary to good health. And I shouldn't be taxed into the poorhouse because drug companies have convinced most people that drugs "cure" disease. Only your body can cure anything.
We need better access to true health care and better education.
Pablo Iguana
Top Ramen is yet another sign of the apocolypse...
Steve Baxter
Sometimes, maybe. But I don't agree that we need antibiotics nearly as often as most people take them.
stderr
Over use of antibiotics is the reason they don't work very well anymore on a lot of things. Putting them in animals to prevent what MIGHT happen is insane.
Captain James T Kirk
Who are you, Pablo Iguana?
Blade Runner
Who are we all for that matter??
stderr
What are you talking about Monty?
Isis
He misinterpred you.
Isis
Vaccins(sp) serve a deffinate purpose.
Steve Baxter
I have to agree with that. Vaccines have done a lot.
stderr
Antibiotics are great too, but wasting their effectiveness on animals (or people) who aren't sick is a mistake that is encouraged by drug companies who are trying to make even more money.
stderr
I agree. The police should be out catching rapists and gang murders and leave normal people who aren't bothering anyone alone.
Isis
But if the speed limits arn't enforced, they will become totally meaningless Do you want someone going 50 in a school zone?
Captain James T Kirk
Yea, the speed limits need to be inforced. Some poeple arn't going to abide by them, so there has to be SOME kind of incentive.
Blade Runner
I'm not saying they don't need to be inforced. In the case of a school zone I'll just say --> OBVIOUSLY. On the freeway it's a slightly different matter though. The speed limit used to be 70, then 55 supposedly for fuel conservation. Most of the time when I'm driving someplace on a freeway and it's away from a place you might find police the people still rarely exceed 70 or 75. I think it's just a bit ridiculous to get a ticket for 68, ecspecially when you're one of 4 cars all going the same speed. I also feel it's a bit ridiculous to have a speed trap going with one plane, four cruisers, and three motorcycle cops. Wouldn't it be bit better to have them doing something where the violation, or criminal activity is greater. Maybe you could disperse them around those school zones? I know, freeway is state, but you get my point. Too much emphasis is put on it.... again, at least in the case of the freeway...
Isis
that's true, but people do sometimes drive too fast on the freeway...If i'm not in a hurry I'll only go 55 and I rarely go over 67, if ever, for fuel reasons & really fast drivers make me uncomfortable when they weave between cars.
stderr
Nobody is saying that it's ok to speed in a school zone. The place where the police should leave you alone is the lonely rural road and the freeway. Go get the damn crack dealers and leave ordinary americans alone.
Now if you are worried about the crazy bastards who weave in amoung the cars and act like idiots, fine, let's get them for driving recklessly. But simply driving fast is not reckless.
Blade Runner
I was going to say the same thing stderr. There's a big difference between fast and reckless. As for the fuel stuff, hehe, I used to own a 1971 Mach I Mustang, it would get about 11-12 miles to the gallon in the city. Out on the freeway at 55 it would get about 16, at 70 it would get 21. The car was built for cruise speeds around 70. Many of the big trucks were to but I'll bet there is more fuel loss due to poor maintenance, low tires than there is because of speed. Look at tires in a parking lot sometime, I've found that about half of the ones I see are low. I used to be a mechanic so visual checks are really easy for me...
Cthulhu
In reference to stderr's comment on antibiotics...Most people are unaware that the meat they buy in the supermarket came from animals that were shot up with extreme doses of antibiotics and growth hormones. There is mounting evidence that this is effecting people.
As for Cthulhu=Socialism...nope. There is a difference between protecting people from extreme greed, and socialism. The reason that the S & L's and banks and many other industries were regulated after the great depression, was that they learned something. There are some business practices that hurt way too many people to NOT regulate them. This includes extremely risky investments by lending institutions.
Just so that you remember. Socialism is when the government OWNS all of the businesses, not when government won't let people be stupid and hurt people just because they are greedy. Got it. Socialism is when the government OWNS the business, not when it regulates them.
Rolling Stone
I hate long messages!
Rolling Stone
Unless it's E-Mail.
Blade Runner
Some of those anitbiotics in animals could be eliminated through the use of food irradiation. How do people feel about that? It does not harm the food in any way, there is no residual radiation, it's been in use for years in Europe and found safe, all tests conclude that it's safe, and it eliminates ALL the bacteria and garbage that is present in many foods...
Steve Baxter
There is more to food than just nutrients. I know this sounds strange if you believe what our current technology tells us. It's the same as eating vegetables that have been sugared, salted, and canned. There is, according to the label, some food value. But food that's treated like that is "dead". It has no life in it and very little sustaining power. It's no wonder people who eat processed food get diseases, because the strain of dealing with such food takes away the body's harmony.
Isis
there arn't a lot of options when you're a kid...my parents pretty much dictate what I eat, along with society in general...I TRIED to be a vegitarien, it didn't work...
stderr
Well, I KNOW about the antibiotics and that's why I want to get back to getting meat by hunting and fishing.
I support the use of radiation on food. They have been talking about it for quite some time. I hope they bring it into more widespread use. Milk would last for a few weeks at room temp.....
Scorpion
We buy all our meat from my uncle who raises about 4 cattle a year. It's pretty healthy as far as beef goes.
Cthulhu
The reasons against irradiating food come from the wierd radical left. I eat health food because I have to and it is more healthy, but some folks hear the word "radiation" and go balistic. Hell, a light bulb puts out a type of radiation. I like the idea of irradiating food, if it really works as advertized.
/s
Steve Baxter
Your body is surrounded by an electromagnetic field that some call an aura. This aura intercepts most weak radiations - like those from a light bulb. Keeping your body in harmony with nature strengthens the aura. I have not tested this, but I believe people with stronger auras will have more resistance to harmful radiation.
I might be the "radical left", but I enjoy eating healthy, natural food. A rule of thumb is, "If it doesn't rot or mold, don't eat it." Do you really want to eat substances that even fungi can't break down? That will put a hell of a strain on your body.
Steve Baxter
And, just for the record, I know there is no residual radiation left in irradiated food. I am not worried about that at all. The "conservative right" thinks we are ignorant. That is not the case.
We think anyone who eats Twinkies is ignorant. I've heard they have a shelf life of about 21 years.
Blade Runner
Yea, I've heard 25. Who knows, never tested it myself. Many of the organic vegies and things that are currently becoming popular have high amounts of harmful things in them. Things such as bacterias, worms, etc. It is extremely hard to check all of them. Many canned foods would be able to be irradiated to eliminate things like botulism(sp). There are quite a number of cases and deaths each year from this, unecessary deaths. I'm not harping on health food things, I try and eat healthy myself... I just think there are few things out there that can make the food system a whole lot safer without introducing more things like pesticides. Some things are helpful, others are not, but I don't think we need to dump more and more pesticides on things when there are viable alternatives. Besides, pesticides can be transferred down to us, although in small concentrations...
stderr
The food will spoil right away once it's opened. That's the positive for the irradiation, because we won't have to can everything. It will still be "fresh".
Isis
No fruit would still rot, so would vegies...it's not ALL bacteria that does it, it's organic & organic stuff decomposes.
Steve Baxter
They want to irradiate fresh vegetables because they will keep a couple weeks longer before rotting. I would rather have fresher vegetables.
Blade Runner
I'd just as soon have them not spoil as soon. I've always had a problem knowing just exactly when something is still safe to eat or not, my weakness...
stderr
They are still fresh. It's just since you start out by killing all the stuff that causes rot, it takes longer to get the new stuff going and therefore the product lasts longer.
Sassy 1
From that definition, it doesn't sound bad, but you know....
Blade Runner
It seems like it would be a good thing in today's food market...
stderr
Imagin how this could help get good food to people in poor parts of the world. Lack of refegeration is the biggest problem. And guess what product uses the most CFC's too.....
Taw
Someone mentioned radiation from a light bulb. Try living under some of the many huge power poles we have in this county and see what happens. Before you do that read what "Discorery Mgs" last year had to say about it.
Blade Runner
I haven't read anything on the effects of electromagnetic fields. I understand it's a relatively new area of study? Has anyone done a reliable study on it? I mean anyone that is qualified? I'm not trying to say there isn't an effect, I'm just saying that I wait until there is some reliable scientific evidence before I form any opinions. Something I learned from a book recently...
Spur
Took ya that long to figure it out, eh?
Scorpion
There have been studies about irradiated food and the effects. A VERY SMALL PORTION is changed into radioactive substance some of which haven't even been classified yet. So it's kinda like the Alar scare. If you eat 100,000,000 apples, you have a 2% greater chance of getting cancer. There is a little cause for concern but not enough to ban irradated food immediatly.
Isis
I bet people eat that many peices of fruit in a lifetime, if not, maybe half as much at least, and that's still a 1% increase.
Monty
50,000,000 pieces of fruit in a lifetime!? that's almost a piece of fruit every minute from the day you were born till you turn 100 years old. i think that's a bit too much fruit for my taste... even without the risk or cancer
Monty
that's 'risk of cancer'
Scorpion
That was for apples with Alar. that was just a random number
Blade Runner
The alar scare was a joke that cost Washington apple growers more the 200 million dollars and is still having effects. The publicized figure that were released by the people who did the original study and found cancer were a joke. AA person would need to eat 28,000 punds of apples every day for 70 years. That was the dosage that this research group was giving their test anilmals. Intersting note to all this too is that at a dosage the equals 14,000 pounds per day for 70 years not tumors were found... Sounds to me like someone was trying to increase the dosage to the point that they would get something to cause a controversy.
These figures we also taken from "Trashing the PLanet" by Dr. Dixie Lee Ray with Lou Guzzo. Those figures we also researched and come from the published reports. What Alar scare?!!!!!!
I can't say how good this book is. It is HIGHLY researched from a variety of source. It takes an objective view of the more controversial environmental "concerns" facing us today. Take a read... I didn't change my opinion based on just his book if that's what you may think. But it did spur me to more closely pay attention to things and ask "Where did that data come from", "What were the conditions of the study" etc. etc. before I make any judgements. Too may times today we take what is reported in the news as gospel and that is simply not the case. They take data from so many unreliable sources it confounds imagination... oh well, at least I can look at things differently. This really is an improtant subject with me, can you tell?
Roya
geez Bladerunner.
Roya
typing a lot, i mean.
stderr
What is a one percent increase in cancer amoung 250million people? Aren't we talking about tens of thousands of people?
Blade Runner
If it's even THAT high, which I doubt. According to the studies it shouldn't effect anyone. You simply cannot eat 28,000 pounds of apples per day and 14,000 pounds per day was found not to cause cancer.
stderr
Except that the way they do tests with things that are suppose to cause cancer is to give rats LOTS of it (only a few rats) and then try to figure out the relation between that and a LOT of people having a little bit of the stuff. The theory is that a non cancer causing agent won't cause cancer no matter how much you eat.
Blade Runner
That does go against the old theory of anything can be a poison if there is enough of it. That may or may not be true. Doesn't matter though if it's a few rats and alot of humans. You have to look at cancer causing agents on an individual basis. They give grossly exaggerated amounts a few rats, each individual rat in fact. Then they claim it's cancer causing. If they apply that to humans, I mean in the way you state, it would make no difference. A lot of people each having a little bit is not going to caus cancer. If I ate 10000 pounds of apples and you ate 18000, that's not going to give both of us cancer. We are independent people.
Speaking of cancer causing agents. Did anyone know that there are diferent kinds of asbestos? Some harmful, others not. Alot of the "terrible asbestos" they are removing from places is not the harmful stuff. Actually I should say LESS harmful. It can cause problems, but only in EXTREME amounts. Most of the time the less harmful kind is expelled easily from the lungs...
stderr
I'm not sure that the theory is correct but since they can't get enough rats equal to the amount of humans in the US, that was their next best choice. Sure, eating tons of whatever may kill you for other reasons, but the theory is that it won't cause cancer if whatever it is isn't a cancer causeing agent.
Blade Runner
Well, yes, I understand the theory but many of the things around us can cause cancer in the right concentration. Many of the cancer causing substances we have in our daily lives only do so in certain concentrations. Concentrations that do not normally occur in our everyday lives. The problem is that the media doesn't say that and everbody panics about every little thing that MIGHT cause cancer...
I guess though I wasn't clear. Why do you need the same amount of rats that there are people to run the test? All you have to do is test an individual rat, then apply that to humans. Numbers don't matter, physiology does. As long as you have at least two rats I mean, one experimental and one control. The problem in the case of alar was just that the amounts of alar given were just totally unrealistic...
stderr
You need more than one rat because the odds of getting cancer when exposed to the substance are not 100%. They aren't 100% with radiation either.
Steve Baxter
Blade Runner>
I have read accounts of experiments concerning electromagnetic fields that date back to ancient Greece. People have known about this for several centuries.
My objection to irradiation is that it damages or changes the aura (electromagnetic field) of the food. This is not something that I can back up right now with physical evidence. It just "feels" differant and I have learned to trust my feelings. So I will continue to oppose irradiation until I learn to evaluate its effects on the foods'electromagnetic fields.
Blade Runner
Ok, stderr, I get your point. But you still don't need one rat for every person in the US. The experiment that discovered this alar garbage was set up to make sure that they could cause cancer with alar. The dosage was increased until they caused cancer. No consideration was given to realistic exposures to humans, even in a whole lifetime. Every rat probably didn't get cancer with the large doses, I understand that, but when these tests are set up they are just looking for a case of cancer. Then they retest and try and duplicate the results, then they say "has been found to cause cancer in laboratory animals", they don't say the doses. Really this isn't the best scientific experiment to use as an example for this discussion. It was flawed from the start. I do get the impression though that we are in agreement about the alar scare?
Blade Runner
Oh, Steve, maybe that's true. I would like to see scientific evidence though before I form any opinions for myself. So far there isn't any scientific evidence that says irradiation is harmful. If they study the electromagnetic fields, find that it causes problems, then I may alter my opinion.
stderr
Blade Runner, if you don't believe that increaseing doses if a reasonable scientific method, then you have run the tests with the same number of rats as people you plan to protect. Or at least enough rats that you will see some cancer at rates acceptable in humans.
Scorpion
There have been some studies that indicate that in studies done with rats, it's not always the substance that cuases the cancer but sometimes the ammount. They give the rat so much that the rats body treats it as an invading virus or bacteria and the rapid cell activity that follows that actually causes the cancer.
Blade Runner
I didn't say that increasing doses ISN'T a reasonable scientific method. What I said was that increasing it to the point of being ludicrous is. Many things are NOT carcinogenic at levels normally encountered in a persons life. Increasing the alar levels to points WELL BEYOND what you would ingest in your life simply isn't valid. It's these leves that were found to cause cancer. Lower levels, still ludicrous though, were found NOT to cause cancer. If there's a better example for a non-carcinogen it's alar, at least in any of the levels you'd come into contact with in your life. That is of course assuming you don't go swimming in the stuff and drink it for breakfast...
stderr
I don't know the answer so I'll shut up.
Blade Runner
hehe, I still say we're on the same side of the issue, right? Somehow we got on this scientific method discussion, I'm not sure how though...
Spur
wait, did bill really just say that? next thing you know, >I'LL< be saying it too...
Shane
not a possibility.
Captain James T Kirk
nope.
Blade Runner
Hmmm, I feel a bit stupid. I had no idea until now that stderr was bill...
Captain James T Kirk
You didn't? how is that possible?
stderr
Yea, how is that possible. I haven't been hiding the fact, except from maybe Roya....
Blade Runner
I guess it's just one of those cosmic things that just buzzes right over your head from time to time...
Spur
you should be one to talk, audin. (he just figured it out himself a short while ago)
Blade Runner
Ahhhh, I see. Trying to make me look dense, huh Audin?? Maybe we're all in the same boat? (scary though and expression) hehe
stderr
Your from Haiti?
Captain James T Kirk
Ha!
Blade Runner
No.... just an expression(for the expression impaired) hehe
ETHAN WALKER
OOOB! did I eracs ay?.....pmuwguM "eht taerg"
Captain James T Kirk
Gee... looks like this guy's gunna be a regular twit...
Sassy 1
Give me a break. No, you didn't scare me.
Blade Runner
All that persons messages are like that, why? It's not like it's interesting after the first couple hundred...
Roya
no, but you try to get used to it... TRY being the key word.
Monty
i got used to it, but it doesn't make them any less annoying
ETHAN WALKER
!!!!OOOOB.....woh tuob' won? ......pmuwguM "eht taerg"
Scorpion
Audin> What do you mean "Gonna"?? Should be "is"
Blade Runner
I don't want to get used to it... it's funny for the first couple when everyone gets into it but when they are ALL like that it's just annoying...
Oyra
OK. I propose a boycott of reading all this messages... anybody wanna do it?
Steve Baxter
Audin>
Don't give him my number! Make SFA really interesting so he calls there a lot.
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